The Balrog as the Loathly Lady from medieval literature.

[monks]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think you're having an old argument with someone else here. Boro neither said nor implied that you were egotistical; he said you were falling into logical fallacies like appeal to authority (eg 'this agrees with Priya Seth's anagram, so you KNOW it's true!'). As for 'the Tolkien Community': the Downs is a very small, very quiet corner of the internet, and you've made less than 20 posts here. You've not had 'a lot' of people reply to you, and you don't have enough evidence to say 'very closed minds' - just 'they haven't agreed with me'. Again, I think this is an argument you're making against some other community.

If you'll take some advice, I'd say you're more likely to get positive reactions by sticking to etymologies (for now) than by posting about numerology. We all know Tolkien was a philologist - I'd wager most of the Downs recall the phrase "low philological jest", even if they can't remember what Tolkien was referring to (the name of Smaug; I had to look it up, though). Drawing out hidden etymological details may lead you down blind alleys sometimes ("'Ring' comes from words that also meant a circle of people, so that's why Tolkien had a Fellowship!!!"), but you can at least support them with specific data. Numerology is... well, to be polite, we'll say 'very subjective'.

A brief example: let's say I conclude for whatever reason that Tolkien's use of the number 7 is because he loved the movie
[]

Snipped your post- still not got the hang of the boards..heh I'll respond..

There's a thread for that! The Downs likes to keep its threads at least vaguely on topic, so replies like this are best suited for the original thread.

hS

Uhm Boro said I had big boots in his quote regarding Saruman. Of course it's implied with Gandalf's words to Saruman. Saruman wanted to become 'a Power' and replace Sauron who wanted to be King of kings essentially. The boots is a reference to Bombadil: philology. And Bombadil is Tolkien the philologist with a private symbolic language who seems to speak nonsense to everyone. Saruman tried to make a counterfeit with machine wheels of Tolkien's narrative 'machinery' which is the TURN and his *Wheel* of Fortune which turns the world (and the subject of Seth's anagrams). I've got lots of evidence for all of that. And the Powers are those 4 compass points, Tolkien's incorporation of the Ezekiel's Tetramorph: Eagle, Bull, Lion, Man (hint: *wheels* within wheels). But you don't know that stuff- people seem to already know for a cast iron FACT that I'm wrong. If Boromir88 didn't intend that, it's implied in the quote itself.

Anyway, no biggie.

Access to the OED. That's rather cool. I've been considering subscribing myself. At the moment I'm using etymonline and Skeats. I said in the Tolkien Community. The community is a lot bigger than these boards as you state yourself. I've encountered it elsewhere. So has Priya.

Blind alleys? See my reply to William Cloud Hicklin. No it's you who are blind in this matter. You are all reading TLotR map upside down and I've just posted links to more hidden imagery in that reply.

You said, "Numerology is very subjective."

Thanks for the advice, I know you're trying to be constructive.

But no it's definitely not subjective in specifically Tolkien's works. Tolkien took his number system from Dante and developed his own from that which is encoded in the Chain of Angainor. Have you read any of those predictions I've made? Let's extend your analogy. Could you make specific predictions about details of moments in the film *even down to the second* before you even saw it based on Tolkien's use of those instances of 7?
That's what I've done. And not just once. Over a hundred times now. Tolkien has a system. He refers to it in hints in 'A Secret Vice'. Numerology is part of it because he was influenced by Dante and the medievals: numerology in the Bible, folk-lore, Dante, the Ancient World.

26 Predictions to date based on his numerological system. They're all in yellow there.

You can see evidence of the medievals again in his medieval symbolic landscape. See links posted in the reply to William. The famous LotR map is a medieval symbolic landscape.

I've sat on all of this for a very long time. I didn't even speak about it for 10 years. I don't believe in speaking as an authority in something before I've listened (to Tolkien in this instance, and a number of scholars out there inc Shippey, etc). I'm EXTREMELY sure of everything I'm saying.

monks

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by monks

Uhm Boro said I had big boots in his quote regarding Saruman. Of course it's implied with Gandalf's words to Saruman. Saruman wanted to become 'a Power' and replace Sauron who wanted to be King of kings essentially.

Perhaps my Saruman quote was too strong for the point I wanted to get across. I think Tolkien's note at the end of Letter 153 would have been better:

"Not sent. It seemed to be taking myself too importantly."

In this letter Tolkien is writing to his Catholic friend, Peter Hastings on a variety of topics...I believe Bombadil, the trolls in The Hobbit, the nature of Orcs, Gollum..etc. The point being he got to a moment where he stops and never sends the letter, commenting that 'It seemed to be taking myself too importantly.'

In Letter #211 Tolkien a similar point:

I do not ‘know all the answers’. Much of my own book puzzles me; and in any case much of it was written so long ago (anything up to 20 years) that I read it now as if it were from a strange hand.

And thus comes the general snag when using Letters in your research to prove there were intentional and coded messages Tolkien left for us and we all just don't care enough to find them and thus don't really care about Tolkien like yourself or others.

Tolkien wrote a ton of stuff...I mean a ton. And there's more that hasn't been published and there's even more that's been lost. So based on a person's own experiences and research yes you're going to find evidence that supports your arguments. As Tolkien writes in The Hobbit, if you're determined to find something, you will most likely find it:

There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something (or so Thorin said to the young dwarves). You certainly usually find something, if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after.~Over Hill and Under Hill

Who am I to believe then? The author who wrote a ton, describing his motivations and intentions. Writing correspondence to friends, family and fans saying he doesn't like allegories, which he called the 'purposed domination of the author?' Or should I believe you that Tolkien was lying to everyone as one big elaborate gag and inside joke and that you have discovered the gag? Come on now, of course my reaction is going to be I think you're taking yourself too importantly.

You say you only respond disrespectfully towards others who disrespectfully dismissed your opinions. Fair enough, I see your point. For my part I didn't intend disrespect, but I am trying to explain why I react the way I do to your arguments. Which well, I'll leave at no disrespect was intended, but I think you are unnecessarily heavy handed in your arguments.

I would make this same argument to anyone who claims to know Tolkien intentionally left messages. Even if it's an argument that I'm inclined to believe, I would try to make a counter argument to show the only 'true message' is based on the experiences of the individual reading the story:

The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of the readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them.

No doubt there are parts of your arguments that sound possible, language and the meaning of words was probably Tolkien's biggest inspiration. Numbers were also an influence...why else would it be necessary for Thorin to have a '14th member' of the company if the number 13 wasn't an ill omen?

A question someone might ask, if you're worried about 13 being unlucky why not just have a few less dwarves? Why did there have to be so many dwarves? Well, 13 appears to be an appropriate, reoccurring number. Theoden has 12 knights as part of his body guard. Barahir has 12 companions. Thorin has 12 companions which could be interpreted as his body guard.

It seems likely to me Beowulf was a contributing element, because the hero sets off with 12 companions plus the thief as the 14th.

Some others don't make sense like your 2 and 6 argument in the Tom Bombadil and Goldberry thread. As that's a different thread and others had addressed the reasons they disagreed, I won't comment further on that here.

I'll take the 1, 3, 7 and 9 great Rings of Power example. Tolkien died in 1973. Wait? Did Tolkien predict the year of his death and leave it as a coded message in the numbers of his Rings of Power? Am I to believe that is a coincidence? Why, yes. Yes it is a coincidence.

With someone who wrote as much as Tolkien there are going to be an endless amount of interpretations and experiences as there are with any large myth. The amount of material there is (and like I said there's more that hasn't been published and more that's been lost) it very much feels like a mythology, which will have many different meanings to each individual. That's truly the only point I'm trying to make and why at least on my end, I quickly dismissed your arguments earlier.

I shall bow out now and and I do wish you more luck in your research. As I posted in another thread, glad you got joy and excitement from Tolkien's story.

[monks]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Who am I to believe then? The author who wrote a ton, describing his motivations and intentions. Writing correspondence to friends, family and fans saying he doesn't like allegories, which he called the 'purposed domination of the author?' Or should I believe you that Tolkien was lying to everyone as one big elaborate gag and inside joke and that you have discovered the gag? Come on now, of course my reaction is going to be I think you're taking yourself too importantly.

No problem. I'm not offended Boro. Don't walk away man. This reply is for everyone reading this thread.

Who are you to believe? Well, you make your mind up after reading the evidence. And the evidence is all there for Tolkien being deceptive. Highly deceptive. You can see those images with your own eyes I posted above to William. I didn't create them. And he must have practiced that art a lot! I would struggle to embed hidden images in pictures like that. The West Gate images = riddle. The bottom section that just so happens to line up perfectly with the top west side one is from the east side! Why the heck would he do that? It's a riddle.

And I've got a LOT more to show. And I can explain ALL of it. The Lord of the Rings map is to be read upside down because the world was turned on its head at the Downfall. It's a metaphor for the Enlightenment versus Faith.

The Misty Mountains are Ancalagon the Black in the medieval symbolic landscape. You can see the jaws clearly at Angmar. We also have the white mountains and then the grey mountains, So we have black, grey and white. We have a chessboard scheme after Alice Through the Looking Glass. And this is how that applies to the geometry of the map. Arnor = black. Gondor = White. Grey = Rhovanion. That 'looking glass' runs through Rhovanion. Hence why we have the Mirrormere and the Mirror of Galadriel both in that space. The jaws of the dragon are at the top of the map. That's the dragon Nidhogg who gnaws at the roots of the World Tree in hell. The root is placed over Niflheimr and Níðhǫggr gnaws it from beneath. Misty is from where Nidhogg dwells..Niflheim ("World of Mist","Home of Mist"). "Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." In other words up is down on this map. Hell should be at the bottom. This is the Tolkien's illustration dragon at the root of the World Tree. It gets better , the World Tree is on the map as well, not just the dragon.

Aragorn's test of his heart at going through the Paths of the Dead at the bottom of the map is a test of his faith. He is going against the beliefs of the Godless World. The Paths of the Dead should be up on the map (=in the sky). And yes up/down on the map translates to up/down in the sky. Explained here. So when they called the river Morthond 'BlackRoot' they were saying the paths of the Dead was in hell. And he has to have faith that that door does not lead to death, everlasting death in hell because down is up. And that's why everyone is so irrationally afraid of that place. And that's why you see the butterfly rune suggested in the drawing of that place as posted above to William. The Door of the Dagaz rune. And that's why we see the 3 lines in the ring verse rhyme: sky die lie. And that's why the gates of Caras Galadhon face south-west- they face towards the Paths of the Dead. The Elves know where up is. Hence "Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,". The sky being south-west from their city = Paths of the Dead. The word being turned on its head. That's why the fish Uin is swimming down- down to where the dream fish go- which on the map is up. There are lots of other features on the symbolic map I will reveal. Uin is not alone. I could go on at great length with masses of supporting evidence.

And then we have the Acrostic that Adam Roberts found in the Hobbit. Hidden for 70 years or more. Then the Seth Bombadil anagram. And her other anagrams are genuine, including the 5th that she rejected. I can explain them all. They are about The Wheel of Fortune, his narrative 'machinery' and the hunt (3 Hunters). That turns the world the right way up again.

And then you have Kilby- everybody really needs to read that book. Tolkien wrote 'sex' stories..in the modern sense? Tolkien told him he was going to reveal to him things. Secrets. And then you see those images on the West Gate..and it all makes more sense. I've got a few more images with sexual symbolism in them to show.
Everywhere you look into Tolkien you see secrets. Secret codes. Secret Languages. Khuzdul anyone? His rebus. Riddles. Anagrams. Acrostics. A Secret Vice. Codes in his letters to Edith. The Book of Foxroot etc. Fox and rook- both words fox and rook mean to deceive, to trick. He calls Goldberry 'pretty' immediately after she calls him Master more than once...pretty etymology = Tricky. The Master is the same Master in A secret Vice. The little man IS Tolkien.

Secrets EVERYWHERE. Why d'you think he was approached to work at Bletchley Park?

Does that sound like a man who wasn't capable of being deceptive? And consistently on a big scale too. And guess what, Kilby even came up with a word for it: Contrasistency. Consistently contradictory. That fits perfectly. I get the feeling Shippey smelt something as well. And Shippey and Kilby were the only two people to have met Tolkien. So there's something about meeting Tolkien and discussing his work...a glint in his eye no doubt.

And then you have people saying to me oh Tolkien didn't even know himself what he was writing. And Tolkien may have said such a thing. He was lying. Being deceptive. He loved riddling people. If you look at the etymologies of the words he uses you can reveal deception via references to his private symbolism. I mean the new book that is coming out that Carl Hostetter is editing...those tables of events. Does that sound like someone who was just rambling along like Don Quixote? He also said that the book wrote itself. It did in a sense because he was following the logic of his own system and the journey up through the 7 planes. The logic of the book is the TURN through the Doors up those planes. Each turn consists of 3 turns, see my essay. You have turns of small wheels- 7 of them, 1 for each plane. And there are other ones such as the turn of Denethor. Then you have the two large turns that rotate the wheel of Fortune: the falls of Boromir and Frodo's failure to destroy the ring. So you have Ezekiel's wheels within wheels. It's a thing of beauty.

Tolkien didn't come clean probably because there's a lot of sex in there. And that originated from his time he was separated from Edith. An incredibly frustrated young man. He probably thought that he never had any chance of getting published at that point anyway. And the system was set at that point and he stayed with it. He had to settle with playing the riddler which he did even before he created the Book of Ishness anyway: The Book of Foxroot etc. I'm presuming that h didn't want to reveal the sex for whatever reason. He was tempted to reveal at that moment with Kilby because he was becoming famous- there was a buzz. He wanted recognition for his Dantean-Platonic masterpiece. It's up there with the top of the Literary Establishment what he did. Technically it exceeds them all, on a par with Dante's Divine Comedy. The other possibility is that he just wanted to play the riddler. My money is on the first though

monks

[Huinesoron]

monks, you're still throwing out far too many points per post; it's literally impossible for anyone to engage with all of them, so I'm not sure what you're looking to achieve. I'm going to choose just two to respond to. The first is your list of 'did you see's:

• Did you see this lady hidden in this image? -- No. There are two eye-like images at the top of your heavily cropped image - and also four at the bottom. Even if the top two are taken to be eyes, they are no more female than male.
• Do you see the hidden figures in the West Gate? -- No. All you've done is drawn some wiggly lines on clips of a rock face; I have no idea how this is supposed to be 'sexual'.
• Did you see the two figures here? That's the Loathly Lady theme. -- No. I can barely make out what you've done, but it seems to be just outlining some shadows. No figures.
• Did you see these wings and this apparition in this image? -- Maybe. There could be wings, but only because of that vertical line on the right side. The head isn't there, and the shoulders... are a door.
• Do you see the geometry of the rune Dagaz? He reuses that in other images such as his drawing of Helm's Deep and twice (here and here)in his Book Mr Bliss. -- No. Or rather, yes - it's called perspective. Any picture looking straight down a receding road/corridor will exhibit this shape. It's not mystical to draw a straight path.
• Do you see these hidden images in the West Gate? -- No. As far as I can tell, you're just slapping arrows down at random here.
• Did you see the woman with her cloak with its left wing oustretched (the same wing in Seth's anagram MINE HOLE FALL HELD LEFT WING and the same wing in the butterfly rune). -- No, in any of its forms. (Incidentally, you never have explained where the supposed anagram comes from, other than "Priya Seth".)
• Do you see the Balrog as the inverse of that woman here? -- No. There's nothing there.

Much like numerology, pareidolia is extremely subjective.

Originally Posted by monks

But no it's definitely not subjective in specifically Tolkien's works. Tolkien took his number system from Dante and developed his own from that which is encoded in the Chain of Angainor. Have you read any of those predictions I've made? Let's extend your analogy. Could you make specific predictions about details of moments in the film *even down to the second* before you even saw it based on Tolkien's use of those instances of 7?

Okay, I love a challenge. I'm not going to watch Seven Samurai to check predictions about it (and why would I? We're analysing Tolkien, not Kurosawa!), but I will make specific predictions for you. Ready?

• There are at least four named sets of seven in Tolkien - the Houses of the Dwarves, the Sons of Feanor, the locations of the Palantiri, and the Beacon Hills of Gondor. I predict that each of these sets will contain a reference to the names of the titular Seven Samurai. (Predictions 1-4)
• I predict that Tolkien would not stop at four sets of seven. There will be more. (Prediction 5)
• In fact, I predict that there will be seven named sets of seven which will contain references to the Seven Samurai. (Prediction 6)
• I predict that one of these will be found in the Hobbit family trees in the Appendices. (Prediction 7)
• I predict that another will concern rivers. (Prediction 8)
• I predict that there will be a reference to a seven in chapter seven of each book of LotR. (Prediction 9)
• In fact, I predict that the seventh word, of the seventh paragraph, of chapter 7 of The Fellowship of the Ring will be a reference to the Seven Samurai. (Prediction 10)

I have not checked any of these. If they are all correct, will you either concede that Tolkien was inspired by a film that came out after he'd already published the book, or that it's incredibly easy to make and 'prove' specific predictions based on numerology and pareidolia?

EDIT:

For reference, the Seven Samurai, along with Google Translations of the characters in their names, are:

• Kikuchiyo - Thousand Generation Chrysanthemum
• Kambei Shimada - Intuitive guardian / rice-field island
• Shichirōji - Next seven white
• Katsushirō Okamoto - Four white victory / book hill
• Heihachi Hayashida - Flat eight / rice-field forest
• Kyūzō - Long-term storage
• Gorōbei Katayama - Five white guardian / Piece of Mountain

As these translations precede any attempt to prove the predictions, errors are irrelevant - we know there's no actual connection, so who cares if I'm proving a link to the wrong thing?

[/edit]

The quickest one to look at, as a sample, is...

Prediction 10

Excluding the Prologue, and counting Frodo's poem as a single paragraph, the word descibed in #10 is 'with', as in 'overcome with surprise'. Now, the word by itself refers to the fact that [i]Seven Samurai[i] is a story about a group of warriors coming together to achieve their goals. They don't start out as a team - they come together over the course of the story. 'With' is a very apt word here - they fight with each other, rather than fighting separately.

The OED (on which Tolkien worked, mind you!) describes the development of the word 'with' in these terms: These senses are mainly those denoting association, combination or union, instrumentality or means, and attendant circumstance. 'Union'. 'Combination'. These meanings foreshadow the Fellowship of the Ring, Tolkien's homage to the Seven Samurai of his favourite film.

And there are other meanings of 'with'! It's used as a term relating to chimneys, ie fireplaces - and here occurs exactly seven (that number again!) paragraphs after the Hobbits enter a welcoming home. In words such as 'withhold' and 'withstand', it means 'away' or 'against' - and, indeed, just as the Hobbits move away from the Shire to fight against Sauron, we see this remarkably significant word show up!

Finally, since it is a word about coming together, it's appropriate to look at those surrounding words. 'Overcome with surprise' - this is a perfect description of the samurai's raid on the bandit camp at the beginning of Part 2. And how do they carry out that raid? With fire - as in fireplace, chimney - with.

I will come back to the other 9 predictions later, when I have more time. They probably won't be covered in as much detail (I don't have that much time), but I am confident they will all be proven true, and demonstrate the accuracy of my theories with indisputable power.

EDIT2: Found a little time.

Prediction 7

There are seven named Masters of Buckland before Meriadoc the Magnificent. Obviously, as Merry is a member of the Fellowship, he would not be included on a list set at the time of LotR.

The first connection to the Seven Samurai is that the first Master was Gorhendad Oldbuck, with the name 'Gorhended' meaning 'great-grandfather' (it's Welsh). Both his names therefore connect to old age, and who was the first of the Seven Samurai? Kikuchiyo - Thousand Generation Chrysanthemum.

Another link - you didn't think Tolkien would stop at one, did you? - is that three of the Masters have names ending in 'madoc'. See how three of the Samurai's names include 'white' in translation? Those are all the same character - 'shiro'. Three and three - you see?

Prediction 9

This should be fun.

Book 1, Chapter 7: In the House of Tom Bombadil

How many characters appear in this chapter - six, right? Four hobbits, Tom, and Goldberry. Except no: there is a seventh, though we don't learn about it until later. Frodo has a dream, in which he sees a vision which is later revealed to be Gandalf.

Book 2, Chapter 7: The Mirror of Galadriel

The heart of this chapter is Frodo's visions in the Mirror of Galadriel. How many does he see? Well, nine are mentioned - but the last is Sauron, and the first, described at length, is Gandalf. Between these two opposing forces, he sees seven things in the Mirror.

Book 3, Chapter 7: Helm's Deep

Seven warriors appear in this chapter: Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli - Eomer - Gamling (leader of the soldiers of Helm's Deep) - Theoden - and Erkenbrand, who arrives to break the siege. Gandalf arrives with Erkenbrand, but is presented less as a warrior than as a force of nature.

Book 4, Chapter 7: Journey to the Cross-roads

Easy: before the fall of night they halted, weary, for they had walked seven leagues or more from Henneth Annûn

Book 5, Chapter 7: The Pyre of Denethor

Reveals the palantir of Minas Tirith, one of the Seven Stones.

Book 6, Chapter 7: Homeward Bound

Towards the end of this chapter, the hobbits pass the point where they left Tom Bombadil, and think back to their time with him - the heart of which takes place in Chapter 7 of Book 1.

Predictions 'proved': 3. No, 4: Prediction 5 was proved by the existence of the Master of Buckland 7.

hS

[monks]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

monks, you're still throwing out far too many points per post; it's literally impossible for anyone to engage with all of them, so I'm not sure what you're looking to achieve. I'm going to choose just two to respond to. The first is your list of 'did you see's:
hS

Thanks for the time and energy. Haha your predictions. Priceless mate. "Indisputable power"? Where did that come from? If you read my recent reply to William you'd find that I've already distanced myself from any claims to any special powers or gifts of insight. Same with my homepage. You just ignored that. ok dude. Tolkien has a system and you work it out from his etymologies in the text. It takes time but it's a very simple METHOD. And I don't understand why clicking on an image to look at it is so much effort.


I'm going to focus on 2 things. The image 'Wickedness', and 'the Door' because they are connected.

The first image. You said that the eyes are no more female than male. Look at the whole image and look at the long hair falling down to either side from that face: black and red which are the two colours of the Enemy, hence 'Wickedness'. It is a woman. Shelob is found in Mordor. The colours associated with Mordor are red and black. The image Wickedness is the 'Dance of the Seven Veils' which is part of the Loathly Lady theme. The theme is sexual temptation, and the fall of Woman, the dominant predatory woman, the Whore of Babylon in fact. 'She That is Fallen' from the Akallabêth. Hence the spider imagery. (the many eyes, and the spider-like bases of the columns which can be viewed as two feet with the head at the top. And remember it's a symbolic landscape- the symbolic forms don't have to be literal). Shelob is the 'Loathly Lady'. As is the Balrog (after writing my essay on that which I posted a link to on here I subsequently discovered that the Loathly Lady is referred to more than once as carrying a multi-thonged whip...I also posted that update..but that's just a yet another coincidence. *cough*). Both are incarnations of that. Tolkien developed the idea of the veils from Haggard's 'She'. Now note that I only made the connection between 'She' and that imagery after I'd made most of the 29 predictions related to the theme and that image. I discovered the word veil occurs over 40? times in 'She'. I've made no less than 29 predictions around this theme.

Just to take a sampling.

Prediction #71. That Tolkien would describe Shelob as 'loathsome' or 'loathly'. He describes her as 'loathly' ("the most loathly shape that he had ever beheld"). But that's just another coincidence right? ookkk darlings.

Prediction #4. That the meaning and description for Remmirath (the Pleiades) would incorporate the meaning/ description of 'flies'. (sitha 'fly', Sithaloth or Sithaloctha ('fly-cluster'), the Pleiades). (The Book of Lost Tales). But that's just a coincidence right? D'OH! I last read that book 35 years ago.

Prediction #24. That each of the Seven Stars in the Valacirca were butterflies. Again, the Book of Lost Tales: The Silver Sickle The seven butterflies. Coincidence. How did I manage that then?

Tolkien Prediction #25 The strange signs on the left curtain in 'Wickedness'. I predicted that there would be 7 of them." Because? No not Samurai Huinesoron, each one is 'a veil' from the Dance of the 7 veils. The shape of them suggests this too. LOOK. And each has pair of 'holes' in them suggesting eyes -yaknow like the two eyes at the top of the image I pointed out? With her hair over her eyes rather like a veil huh? Nuuu all a coincidence!

Prediction #36 I predicted that the Cirth rune shown would refer to the female in some way, or denoting 'ng' from its visual shape.". NG is a velar nasal. Etymology of velar: "sail, curtain (see veil (n.))". The same curtain, veil in the image. Because? This is the female- the Loathly Lady, the Dance of the 7 VEILS. NG symbolism refers to the words of Gandalf 'through fire and flood'- the crossing over of death. His language is mathematical Huinesoron (see Kilby) and geometric- completely inextricable from the narrative and symbolism. I've already made some inroads into understanding it. And can you see the rune Dagaz there- I did say that these two subjects were connected. More info on my predictions page. Cue 7 Samurai.

Prediction #53 That Tolkien would refer to Shelob as abominable. Correct. Because? The Whore of Babylon is referred to as an abomination.

Prediction #61 That Tolkien would mention the unveiling of the woman 7 times in TLotr. Woman clearly defined as Sun and stars. Moon = male. Correct. See my essay (work in progress!) here. Dance of the 7 veils my friend.

Prediction #62 that the 4th occurrence of the 7 instances of the woman being unveiled would be the instance in the Mirror of Galadriel. Galadriel is part of the Loathly Lady theme. Hence why her phial is used against Shelob. It occurs there because that's the centre of the 7 unveilings sequence 123 4 567 and it occurs in the centre of the geometry of the LotR map (black, grey, white). Grey being Rhovanion and the crossing of the mirror. 4 = plane of the mirror. Tolkien uses a chessboard scheme from Alice Through the Looking Glass. See my latest post to Boro. Cool huh?

Prediction #87 That Tolkien used 3 or 4 instances of the word 'purple' in The Lord of the Rings. Correct 3 times. Why? Because of the symbolism in the West gate imagery. The theme of the Dance of the 7 veils spans the whole book. It carries over from She That is Fallen, continues with the mention of the Remmirath, and ends in Shelob. "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in er hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". The cup is the same cup of 'Who now shall refill the cup for me?' of Galadriel. We can talk about scarlet another time. As I've already said TLotR is Tolkien's Purgatorio- modeled on Dante. It's a well honed systematic narrative machine.

So the Door, the Dagaz rune in the landscape.

In the History of Animals Aristotle refers to the soul as a butterfly, psyche. It's found in Homer and Plato too. Tolkien was exposed to Greek at King Edwards and possibly even before. Dagaz = butterfly rune = the Door. The soul passes through the Door to reach higher rational planes including the final passage from life into death. That's why you can clearly see the 'X' suggested in the Helm's Deep drawing leading to the Paths of the Dead. You know the Door there? Extremely obvious relation. And in 'Before' and 'Afterwards' which is obviously the crossing over through the Door. You can see how Tolkien has lined up the rune Dagaz with the megalithic Door on his design for the dustjacket for the The Hobbit. And you have the famous Door in the mountain. Nooooo the door has nothing to do with dagaz at all! He also tried to line up gyfu at the bottom. Again 'X', gift- the gift of eternal life (Death) and sex.

Symbolically Doors in Tolkien consists of two wings- two swinging halves -see etymology which suggests the early doors were like saloon doors with two halves. Hence why he chose Dagaz as the Door- both from the the soul connection and the door etymology. The two wings are male and female which are required to be in harmony to open the door. The door opens at twilight..because? The Sun and Moon are female and male. Etymology twilight = two lights. Twilight = harmony, both in the sky.That's why the Door of Erebor opens at twilight. Naahh none of that is consistent at all The letter 'X' symbolizes the convergence of the Sun and moon- female and male. The two hearts in this geometry in fact.

Each of the 7 stars in the Valacirca is a Door- hence prediction 24 above. Each of the 7 stars are female figures. They guide the Free Peoples through the Histories through the Door. Hence prediction 24. Galadriel = 1st, Arwen the 7th. I've known that for several years Huinesoron.
The flies of prediction 4. The Remmirath are the 7 stars, the females who have been captured by Shelob. Hence why they are in the East (with Shelob) and Tolkien mentions them right at the outset of TLotR. Loathly Lady. Dance of the 7 veils theme ending in Shelob. The 7 stars of the Valacirca in the north were captured at the Downfall ('She That is Fallen'). Aragorn = Orion. Pleiades = the 7 stars (females), symbolizing Arwen 7th star. Taurus the Bull, the Enemy, (who appears both in the symbolic landscape in the West Gate cliff face and in the very obvious shape of page V of the Book of Mazarbul (intended to suggest Maze-Ar(Sun)-bull) and in the etymology of the sound the troll makes when his toe is stabbed. Do check the etymology of 'bellow' when you get a chance), stands between him and the Pleiades CONSTELLATIONS HERE. Fairly straight forward that mate. Oh yeh and Orion is The Hunter...riiiiiiight- that would be the Wheel of Fortune machinery and The 3 Hunters theme I keep referring to. So this capture of the stars (flies) by Shelob is why we see Tolkien give us the hint here with his unusual use of the word webs and the focus on women at the fall of Tar-Miriel who represents womankind who is made to fall (She That is Fallen):

"Númenor went down into the sea, with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and its balls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its lore: they vanished for ever. And last of all the mounting wave, green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-Míriel the Queen, fairer than silver or ivory or pearls.

The etymology of web surprisingly gives tapestries. But no non-philologist would associate the word web with tapestries. Tolkien knows that. Meaning "spider's web" is first recorded early 13c. It's a hint. As I said 'She That is Fallen'-which manifests as the Balrog and Shelob. And Shelob eats children as we know. The Akallabêth and TLotR are connected because in TLotR the woman, She That is Fallen, the Sun, is restored to her rightful place in the north. Cue 'The Star of the North' from Silmarien in the Akallabêth. See ALL of the rest of my posts. ALL consistent.

Recalling the Haggard influence I mentioned. 'She' is Galadriel developed from Haggard's 'She', and 'She'-lob is an inversion of her. She That is Fallen is Womankind- the spider Shelob who appears in 'Wickedness' and the 7 stars of the Remmirath (the flies) who are captured (are fallen) by her in her webs.

As a side note. I don't know why anyone would have a problem with the idea that Tolkien has incorporated a motif from medieval literature. I just happened to predict that word 'loathly' would be used to describe Shelob. That's a rare and archaic word. I'd never even heard of it until I bumped into it in my research. And later I discovered that there are folks who have associated Shelob with the vagina dentata. Which is correct. Hence the sexual imagery. And then I discovered that the Loathly Lady is described more than once as carrying a multi-thonged whip. Which agreed with my Balrog analysis. And this one will really annoy you haha. She is also described as most learned and having knowledge in 'DIALECTIC AND GEOMETRY'- those two very things all over my homepage and thesis mate.

Fancy that then.

p.s

I already responded to your statement Huinesoron about numerology being subjective. My response was the obvious:- not in Tolkien's personal system. Hence my many correct predictions pertaining to his use of it. He modeled his works on Dante and Plato. His geometry and dialectic are derived from The Republic and the Timeaus. His numerology was developed from Dante's.

Thanks for the new word pareidolia btw I've not encountered that for a while, forgot about that one. :-) I think you've failed to recognize the importance of the medieval symbolic landscape in his works. But that's to be expected. It's a very new idea to Tolkien scholarship- at least I think it is. That's what the hidden imagery is. It does have a purpose beyond mere riddling. Tolkien touches upon it in the N.C.P where he speaks about Arthur and geometry and geography- the symbolic landscape was found in the Arthurian Romance literature. Tolkien even invented a word 'Garthurian' to describe a 'hidden realm'..haha..(Garthurian Hidden Realm ( = Doriath)....G-ARTHURIAN THUR- 'secrete', guarded, hidden)...mmmm whatya think Huinersoron? The most obvious example is the geometry in the illustration 'Eeriness'. And not coincidentally, that's the first time we encounter his monogram in its final form.

The letters of his alphabet are the material structures of the world just like in the Mystic Talmud -that's why Tolkien has mystic words..and in the ideogrammatic origins of our own alphabet. J = ac the oak, the dragon, see Tolkien's Floral Alphabet letter J. T = birch from the Beth-Luis-nion, the two Rs = wrath of the man and woman 'back to back' as you see in the figures on the West Gate cliff face- the Loathly Lady theme, which just so happens to be the plane of wrath from his incorporation of Dante's 7 Deadly Sins in The Lord of the Rings..yaknow Minas Tirith bearing an uncanny resemblance to his City of Purgatory? //grin. fingers in ears not listenin la la la! That's why there are 10 instances of his monogram in his narrative, in the landscape. It's a symbolic landscape. And that coincides with Seth's book. The monogram does indeed exist in the Moria sequence and also at the North Gate (the two Gates are two sides of the same gate), but not for the reasons that she gives. Her anagrams are about the Wheel of Fortune and the Hunt which begins in the Moria sequence. There are 5 of them. The 5th one refers to the Ring which you can find as the circle at the bottom of the letter J in his monogram. The Ring symbolizes the 'closed circle', the ouroborus -much like the Iron Crown of Melkor. The closed circle is a state where repentance is not possible (from his letters) and separation from God is everlasting. It's found at the bottom of the letter J because that's where hell is. Heaven is the Door at the top of the monogram in the sky where the flame is. The superimposition of the letter J on the letter T in his monogram is the Dragon coiled around the Tree. Its full visualization is the two trees utterly entwined from his wedding poem. Those being the oak and the birch. And yes the right hand male is the oak, the Enemy. But as I've already stated more than once, the influence of the Enemy swaps between left and right hands because of the spiral courses of the Sun and moon around each other. So both male and female are fallen. The letters are also assigned to the Wheel of Fortune. The 4 compass points. NORTH = J = The bull (the Enemy). SOUTH = T = Man (the man primarily represents the plight of the Woman in the Loathly Lady theme). WEST = R = the eagle. EAST = R = the lion. During the rotation of the Wheel during the narrative of the LotR the Woman moves from the south to the top. She is restored to her rightful place, recall the The Star of the North. The Devil moves from the top (N) to the bottom. The 5th anagram is the Wheel itself, the Ring. In the monogram, the two sets of 4 dots can be joined by a diagonal line. That's the plane of the hypotenuse in his geometry, which in his world manifests as the ray of sunlight which you also see in his illustrations. The dots represent the horizontal plane (male) and the vertical plane (female). As such they are the square and the circle which you can find in his heraldry. Their relationship is the 'squaring the circle' which is a geometric metaphor for conflict, the attempt to turn the female into a male- that occurs through a misunderstanding of the role of man and woman in God's order. That begins in the Discords of Melkor when the geometry is created. It's the Loathly Lady theme once again. I covered that in my initial exchange with you regarding the silver sixpence if you remember.


monks

[Huinesoron]

Prediction 8 & Prediction 6

Once again, I was correct in stating that one of Tolkien's sets of seven would be about rivers. In fact, I was more than correct: both of the remaining sevens are sets of rivers!

Ossiriand has seven named rivers, of which the most significant for this discussion is the southernmost: Adurant, meaning 'doubled course'. Adurant contains the famous island of Tol Galen - a clear reference to the name 'Shimada', meaning 'rice island'. Note that this is only one of the names of Kambei Shimada - a Doubled Course indeed!

Note that Tol Galen is the later home of Beren and Luthien, the most significant couple in Arda's history - and Kambei Shimada was the leader of the Seven Samurai, ie, the most significant.

The Seven Rivers of Gondor are very interesting, because Tolkien provided two conflicting lists of them. This reflects the Seven Samurai's theme regarding who can be considered a true samurai.

The 'Gondorian Samurai' is clearly Gorōbei Katayama; this could have been (but wasn't) predicted from his status as second-in-command of the Seven, just as Gondor becomes the second most important battlefield of the Third Age. His name means 'Five white guardian / Piece of Mountain', and check this out:

• The Seven Rivers arise from the White Mountains - two different parts of Katayama's name!
• Five of the seven rivers empty into Anduin. Note the 'five' in Katayama's name. Note also that one of the rivers, Lefnui, is literally named 'Five'!
• If Katayama is Gondor's samurai, then Lefnui is Katayama's river: it marks the western border of Gondor, thus standing as a guardian. (It also appears on both lists of seven, so don't think I'm trying to cheat here.)

Wow, only Predictions 1-4 to go! I think I'm building a really strong case here. I see you've ignored these in your response - when are you going to see the truth about Tolkien's Method, which is that he just really loved those Seven Samurai?

EDIT:

Prediction 1

The Dwarves. Now, there are no obvious references in the names of the Seven Houses of the Dwarves, other than 'stone > mountain'. So what do we do when our prediction is shown to be wrong? Do we give up? NEVER! Let's dig through etymology!

Aha: beard, appearing in the names of the Longbeards, Firebeards, and Stiffbeards, has another meaning: to openly defy or defeat someone. Tolkien, as a philologist, would know this. The term I've rendered 'guardian' in the names of the Samurai is actually two characters - 'guard soldier'. And what do guards and soldiers do? They defy - they defeat - they beard their enemies! The missing 'third beard' among the Samurai is Katsushirō Okamoto, whose name includes 'victory'.

Prediction 2

The Sons of Feanor! This one had me worried; I got all the way through the list before finding anything, but I should have had more faith! Tolkien buried the reference in the seventh of Feanor's sons, Amras, whose Father-name was 'Last Finwe'. Why is this significant? Because of the obvious connection to the Samurai Shichirōji, whose name includes seven (for this seventh son), and... next. Yes, Shichirōji indicated that there would be more after him, but Tolkien flipped that on its head to show how the house of Feanor was utterly doomed - Telufinwe (Amras) is the LAST - there is no NEXT.

Prediction 3

Ah, the Palantiri. An easy one - Orthanc is a tower namd 'the Cunning Mind', which has a clear symbolic connection to Okamoto, 'book hill'. Okamoto's other name is Katsushirō, and Tolkien made use of this as a pun: 'four white victory' became for white victory - that is, the Palantir was part of the plan for Saruman the White's victory!

Prediction 4

The Beacon-Hills of Gondor. We'll let Okamoto rest for a while rather than using 'hill' again. Instead, lets look at the hill Calenhad, whose name means 'green place'. Is this a reference to 'rice-field island', or to 'rice-field forest'? I'd have to look deeper into the Japanese to figure out which, but it's clearly one of them.

As a bonus: Halifirien, the seventh hill, is named 'Holy Mountain'. Holiness... peace. 'Piece of mountain' is the translation of Katayama - and as I proved just now in Prediction 3, Tolkien made use of puns in his referencing! 'Piece of mountain' becomes 'peace mountain'... perfect.

That concludes the demonstration. It's taken me, what, a day to reach a tenth of your oft-quoted number of predictions? If this was something I actually believed, you can bet I'd be able to surpass it within a month. Because this is numerology, and pareidolia, and if you let it take hold of you it will let you prove anything you want.

Or maybe Tolkien was a really big fan of a Kurosawa movie that hadn't yet come out. Who can say?

hS

[monks]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Prediction 8 & Prediction 6



hS

Let's just take the first prediction in isolation.

Tolkien Prediction #71

That Tolkien would refer to Shelob as 'loathly' or loathsome'.

Hardly had Sam hidden the light of the star-glass when she came. A little way ahead and to his left he saw suddenly, issuing from a black hole of shadow under the cliff, the most loathly shape that he had ever beheld, horrible beyond the horror of an evil dream. Most like a spider she was, but huger than the great hunting beasts, and more terrible than they because of the evil purpose in her remorseless eyes.


Why would you or anyone generalize your argument about something that is so specific? Why would you refute that statement of that prediction with a general argument about the nature of predictions? What is the chance of that word being used to describe Shelob? Tell me. And the fact that I included 'loathsome' as the other word is irrelevant because it was made because of the LOATHLY lady theme- the very word which Tolkien used, and he uses it nowhere else in those '600,000' words of the LoTR. You are avoiding the subject. This has nothing to do with the nature of predictions generally -me 'seeing things I want to see' as you are characterizing it. It's about the fact that I made that specific prediction about that specific word occurring in that work to describe that specific character in it.

And I also told you that I'd never heard that word before I encountered the Loathly Lady motif in my research.

So let's deal with the matter in hand instead of avoiding it.

You are avoiding the facts in front of you. And you are avoiding the facts because you don't understand HOW I was able to make that prediction. And I have explained that it was through the forensic study of the etymologies of an enormous number of words in Tolkien's texts and letters over 15 years through which I arrived at my understanding of (among others things) how he incorporates male and female conflict (as I term it left and right handedness in 'the geometry')- the battle of the sexes- which is the subject of the Loathly Lady theme. And just by coincidence that study, that approach, is also something that you have never done.

Do you see the correlation there between not understanding and not thinking it possible and not doing the work and using the method yourself? And it's not like my method is using a crystal ball is it? It's etymology- the very stuff Tolkien lived and breathed and indeed what he told us his works were all about.

That by doing work you have never done, by using an approach that that you (and indeed anyone else) have never used I was able to do something that you can't do, and indeed don't understand. And what's more the efficacy of that method is supported by the Hammond and Scull example. And I make that point. It reveals that my method can give insights into his works that experts don't have, moreover insights into things I have never even seen. And that study of his etymologies revealed an understanding of the relationship of conflict, and indeed specific details of that conflict (the oppression of the female by the male for eg) between male and female which, having encountered the Loathly Lady motif, initiated that prediction.

So let's forget about all of the other predictions and focus on #71 in isolation shall we?

The chances of me being able to make that prediction are EXTREMELY remote. You might expect loathsome- possibly. The odds are not that great for that. But for Loathly it is. It's a very rare archaic word. Moreover I only encountered the word Loathly from the medieval motif, which supports the idea that he used it for Shelob because ...she is the Loathly Lady, or a manifestation of her. And then in addition you have the descriptions about Shelob representing the vagina dentata by others- as I found after I'd made the prediction. The vagina dentata is part of the Loathly Lady motif. So...there you have even more remote probability because clearly other people have identified Shelob with that theme.

And what's more that prediction did not even raise an eyebrow of curiosity from you, never mind acceptance of anything else I've said.

THAT behaviour alone Huinersoron is abnormal because it completely ignores the statistical improbability of that happening. It is YOUR behaviour, not mine, which is abberant or irrational.

And as if that wasn't enough. We can further multiply that irrationality again.

That prediction is regarding the Loathly Lady. And I've also stated that the Balrog is another incarnation of the Loathly Lady motif. And by another remote chance I later discovered that the Loathly Lady is MORE THAN ONCE described in the literature as carrying a multi-thonged whip. Just like the Balrog. I posted the update. And we are actually in that thread. And you knew about the essay before this update. So YOU know about both of those facts.

Now...consider that fact that I arrived at both of those characters being a manifestation of the same thing, via the same method, we can use probability and multiply that chance that I am wrong about my understanding. And we arrive at an even higher statistical improbability. And both of those things, Shelob and the Balrog derive form the same root understanding of the Loathly Lady theme.

So by multiplying that improbability we multiply your irrationality.

And yet there you are behaving in the manner that you are.

The only other thing you can bring to the table is, it was all just a massively improbable chance (and ignore the next 100 predictions waiting to be addressed) or that I'm lying about making that prediction. And to be frank with you, I think the reason why you pointed out that the image I first gave you for the first hidden image (the two female eyes) in the list above, was heavily cropped, was because I was trying to hide something from you- to limit the scope of the possibilities in some way right? And I've just given you the full image and it's actually added more supporting evidence to my initial argument. In addition you made the remark about 'indisputable power' even after me distancing myself from that kind of stuff in this thread. So both of those together suggest to me that you think I'm lying or am suffering from some kind of psychological delusion, ignoring what I'm saying, or any combination thereof. But that's not really the important issue at all here- unless you make it the important issue right?

And yet you still haven't responded to that update on that image of the eyes but posted your bizarre reply.

Again avoidance.

You behaviour IS irrational and it's rooted in the fact that you can't understand the system I'm describing. And if you can't understand the system you have applied your ignorance of that, to every single prediction and contributing piece of evidence. And let's be kind here, the reason why you can't understand the system is because you think my posts are too long and you simply don't have the time to read them or understand them. Well if you don't TAKE the time to read my posts, you'll not be able to understand the system. Obviously. But you still feel justified in your behaviour. So we go round and round in a circle- or rather you do. I'm actually continuing giving you further supporting evidence to avoid that situation and for anyone who might read this thread here or via google.

We can approach each prediction one at a time if you'd like-...shall we try beginning with #71? I already tried that anyway with Predictions #1 and 2..but we can try again.

Those two items: the loathly prediction and the whip update, would at the absolute minimum raise an eyebrow from any rational person. But they didn't. (Indeed the update was described by one lunatic as clickbait.) That is NOT a normal, rational response Huinersoron.

So, in an effort to be constructive, let's try take a few steps back. Let's ignore the system, the other predictions and the images, and any other presumptions we might have made about each other or any misunderstandings..and just concentrate on the statistical improbability of those two facts above regarding the loathly prediction and the multi-thonged whip. And we'll throw in the vagina dentata details too for good measure.

Care to try?

Any time dude.

monks