Lord of the Rings TV series gets multi-season order at Amazon

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Can someone please remind me what material they do and don't have rights to? Like, how much of The Sil could we reasonably see here? I really hope that this is not going to be about the Fall of the Noldor. I felt quite mildly about the thing when I assumed it would be a totally made up from scratch thing with only some names to link it to Tolkien, but I am not watching them butcher The Sil.

As far as I can tell, nooooobody knows. My best guess, given that Christopher was alive at the time the deal was made, is that they have only Second and Third Age material - ie, Akallabeth and Of the Rings of Power from Silm, plus everything except Of Tuor and the Narn from UT. That would give them "Galadriel and Celeborn", which I'd imagine they'd want given that she's one of the few movie characters around in the Second Age; and assuming they also have access to the Hobbit+LotR license, the beginning of Appendix A gives enough about the Two Trees and such that they could legitimately use it in the prologue without drawing on the Silm.

I have seen a claim that the Tolkien estate is "very happy" with how things are going. That comes from the same source that claims the only nudity being filmed is specifically non-sexualised... which led to the adorable claim by various fans that there is "No Nudity In Any Of The LotR Books". Bless... I can name three instances without even thinking about it, and that's not going near the Silm.

Honestly, I'm looking forward to it just so I can cackle with glee every time ill-informed people elsewhere on the internet claim that Tolkien would never have written nudity, or women doing anything other than sewing (no, actually it's pretty much only Arwen who sticks to that), or skin that wasn't ivory-white ("The Harfoots were browner of skin..."). At least on the Downs I know the criticisms I read will be grounded in actual facts, not people's made-up memories of misreading the books!

hS, practicing the cackle already, mwehehehe

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I have seen a claim that the Tolkien estate is "very happy" with how things are going. That comes from the same source that claims the only nudity being filmed is specifically non-sexualised... which led to the adorable claim by various fans that there is "No Nudity In Any Of The LotR Books". Bless... I can name three instances without even thinking about it, and that's not going near the Silm.

I got Frodo after the Orcs strip him clean after Cirith Ungol, and when Bombadil basically tells the hobbits to run around starkers in the grass. What's the third one?

And if we go to the Sil, I wonder if there is a mad fanfic somewhere out there about nude Saeros meeting nude Nienor. You know, he was not entirely wrong about the women of Dor-lomin.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I got Frodo after the Orcs strip him clean after Cirith Ungol, and when Bombadil basically tells the hobbits to run around starkers in the grass. What's the third one?

Gandalf uncloaking? He does say "Naked I lay upon the mountain-top".

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And if we go to the Sil, I wonder if there is a mad fanfic somewhere out there about nude Saeros meeting nude Nienor. You know, he was not entirely wrong about the women of Dor-lomin.

Saeros shows his elvish foresight! Túrin can't handle the truth!

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I got Frodo after the Orcs strip him clean after Cirith Ungol, and when Bombadil basically tells the hobbits to run around starkers in the grass. What's the third one?

Bath time at Crickhollow, a scene in which I've just discovered Merry carefully lays out bathmats for the boys. Clearly he's familiar with Pippin's style of bathing!

And if we go to the Sil, I wonder if there is a mad fanfic somewhere out there about nude Saeros meeting nude Nienor. You know, he was not entirely wrong about the women of Dor-lomin.

There's not nearly so much Silm fanfic out there as there is LOTR, but also, absolutely yes this must exist.

Even with just those examples, we can see Tolkien using nudity as both a positive and negative thing. So yeah, it can certainly have a place in Middle-earth.

hS

[Michael Murry]

In a link that I posted to another thread about "LOTR"-brand television production shifting from New Zealand to the British Isles, I came upon the following quote that I thought also applies to this thread, as well:

After Amazon founder Jeff Bezos demanded a ‘Game of Thrones’-style program [emphasis added] to boost his company’s streaming service, the retail giant paid $250 million to secure the television rights to the franchise four years ago ...

How do we reconcile the treatment of nudity -- let alone, sex -- in Game of Thrones versus the treatment of such subjects by J. R. R. Tolkien in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings? I haven't read The Silmarillion, but I don't suppose one could find much explicit sexuality in this collection of unpublished (in his lifetime) writings. I haven't seen a single episode of The Game of Thrones, either, so I went looking on the Interwebs for something on the subject. I got the following back, right off the top:

The Ultimate Ranking of 'Game of Thrones' Sex Scenes
Rated on a scale of dracarys. 🔥
https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/...es-sex-scenes/

Even though it's over, if there's one thing Game of Thrones remains notorious for—aside from that divisive and disappointing ending, of course—it's the sex scenes that littered the series. From season one, episode one, Game of Thrones proved that it was a show that was not afraid to show plenty of sex scenes, from young hotties Daenerys and Jon Snow to the incestuous pairing that were Cersei and Jamie. Yes, there was plenty of death in Game of Thrones (some would say a depressing and unnecessary amount of death), including many of the people above—it's been over for a while, guys, I'm not going to apologize for the spoiler—but those heartbreaking death scenes were far outweighed by a long list of scorching hot (and, okay, if we're being totally honest here, some not as hot) sex scenes.

Game of Thrones wasn't shy about exploring sex in many different forms and between many different characters. Some of the show's love scenes were hard to watch (but some real-life sex is not the greatest either, so who are we to judge), but many of them were flaming hot like dragon fire. That's why we think it's appropriate that we've utilized a very scientific, very official fire emoji 🔥 -based system to rank the best Game of Thrones sex scenes. Below, we count down Game of Thrones' best and most iconic sexy time moments, from the not-at-all sexy to the ones that might as well have had characters literally screaming "DRACARYS" in ecstasy.

As opposed to this, I searched for some comments by J. R. R. Tolkien relative to this subject and found the following from an interview with him in 1964:

[16:36] Denys Gueroult: “Now, women play very little part indeed in the Lord of the Rings. Eowyn is almost the only woman in the book who shows any sign of sexual awareness at all. Did you deliberately exclude sex from the book?

J. R. R. Tolkien: “No, but after all, these are wars and a terrible expedition to the North Pole, so to speak.”

[For the complete interview, see: J.R.R. Tolkien 1964 interview (Subtitles)
J.R.R. Tolkien interviewed by Denys Gueroult for BBC in 1964 (released 1971).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzDtmMXJ1B4]

Now, does anyone who has read The Silmarillion and seen Game of Thrones have any idea if the richest man on earth will get what he wants out of this television series and whether the "discriminating" television audience will swallow it as J. R. R. Tolkien's work without gagging?

[mhagain]

The Silmarillion has rape, attempted rape, incest, lust, nudity: it doesn't pull any punches and gives the lie to notions of Tolkien as some kind of puritan prude.

The old complaint that the Amazon series was going to go down the route of GoT style gratuitous titillation seems largely founded on the hiring (or at least advertising for) some kind of "nudity consultant" over a year ago. That's old news and seems disproven by the nudity actually being captured and tortured elves in a concentration camp type scene, possibly in the process of being twisted into orcs. There's seriously no other reason for it, other than unfounded Internet worries.

[Galadriel55]

I think the issue around sex/nude scenes is not so mich in their presence as in their use. GOT early seasons are known to have sex scenes just for the purpose of sex scenes - the story does not necessarily benefit from the expliciteness, nor even from the existence of the scene at all. Tolkien can write about nudity and sex and rape, but he'd never spend half a page describing someone's private parts in exquisite detail. He is more the type to let you know exactly what haplened, but to keep the details of the bedroom behind the curtain. It's not the presence of the scenes so much as the way they are done and the purpose they contribute to the story.

Would I watch a GOT style sexed up thing with Tolkien names? I would for Second Age material, to give it a fair chance as a very loose adaptation. I wouldn't if it attempts to adapt any more solid material. However, Hui said before that some sources say the sexualized angle is not what they are going for. Still, the nudity is not the reason I wouldn't watch it - I purposefully haven't watched movie adaptations of books that I really liked because I know they won't do it justice for me. Hence, if it's a very loose adaptation, I don't really care what they do with it, I will treat it basically as a work of its own, or a fanfiction. But if it sticks to the text enough to sort of follow the stoey but also warp everything, nah.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Michael Murry

Now, does anyone who has read The Silmarillion and seen Game of Thrones have any idea if the richest man on earth will get what he wants out of this television series and whether the "discriminating" television audience will swallow it as J. R. R. Tolkien's work without gagging?

Unknown on both, but what the richest man on earth wants is the series to make him lots of money and that may well happen. Fundamentally, this is just an attempt to make a quick buck off the name and work of a better creator.

Whether the discriminating audience will swallow it depends on how the source material is treated, but the philosophical perspectives of Tolkien's work and Game of Thrones (even as a separate thing from A Song of Ice and Fire) are miles and miles apart. I have a hard time imagining that they will mesh well.

Originally Posted by mhagain

The old complaint that the Amazon series was going to go down the route of GoT style gratuitous titillation seems largely founded on the hiring (or at least advertising for) some kind of "nudity consultant" over a year ago. That's old news and seems disproven by the nudity actually being captured and tortured elves in a concentration camp type scene, possibly in the process of being twisted into orcs. There's seriously no other reason for it, other than unfounded Internet worries.

This is not true, at least in my case. I had a bad reaction to the idea the moment I learned of the project and who was behind it. My concerns were increased tenfold when I saw in the statements from Amazon itself that they wanted to mimic the success of Game of Thrones. Per the links provided by Michael Murry provide ample evidence that everyone knows why GoT was so successful. Even the current overall cultural milieu is cause for concern that Tolkien's work will not be treated respectfully.

To the point I made above, based on their own words I think the Amazon production is more sympathetic to the philosophical point of view of GoT and will have every motivation to titillate the audience because that was the secret to success of GoT; and that is just one problem (although admittedly a major one) I have with this production.