Of the Coming of Men Into the West

[Findegil]

Okay, I see now your point. So you think that we should skip Bëor's mentioning of the Folk of Haleth waiting fo rtiddings east of Ered Luin or are suggesting that we should skip all the talk between Felagund and Bëor about the other Atani?

To skipping the waiting for meassage, I would be okay with that. But that he did know about the others is at least for the Folk of Marach asured in DW and I don't see why he should not have knowledge of the wandering Haladin as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Okay, I see now your point. So you think that we should skip Bëor's mentioning of the Folk of Haleth waiting fo rtiddings east of Ered Luin or are suggesting that we should skip all the talk between Felagund and Bëor about the other Atani?

To skipping the waiting for meassage, I would be okay with that. But that he did know about the others is at least for the Folk of Marach asured in DW and I don't see why he should not have knowledge of the wandering Haladin as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

Oh no, not that drastic. I would just remove ", awaiting tidings before they venture further".

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Elvellon

Oh no, not that drastic. I would just remove ", awaiting tidings before they venture further".

I'm a bit confused - what exactly is drastic?

Even in Tolkien's latest musings I find it incredibly unlikely that not one person (in the case of the Houses of Beor and Marach) couldn't understand the speech of the Halethrim (or vice versa).

The most isolated tribes on the planet still have some contact with other tribes - otherwise they'd collapse in an incestuous black hole.

While the Houses of Beor and Marach might've been relatively isolated from the Halethrim (especially in language), I fail to see how they had no contact? Especially in Tolkien's later conception of Men awaking c. 3,000 years before the Exile of the Noldor.



All of the above aside, the fact that the published Silmarillion (as well as the texts on which we're founding our project) has c. 300 years between the Awaking of Men and their arrival in Beleriand consisting of a ton of different cultures, phenotypes, etc. is one of the two things that had me seriously considering Tolkien's 'Round-world', post-1958 writings (it's why I left the project in the first place).

[Findegil]

I seems we are all in on line of sought: Bëor had knowledge about the Folk of Marach and the Folk of Haleth.

And for the Folk of Haleth waiting for tiddings from Bëor's folk, I would agree to Evellon's suggestion:

§10 But Felagund learned from Bëor that there were many other Men of like mind who were also journeying westward. 'Others of my own kin have crossed the Mountains,' he said, 'and they are wandering not far away; and the Haladin, a people NE-CM-01{that speak the same tongue as we}[of a different speech], are still in the valleys on the eastern slopes NE-CM-01.02{, awaiting tidings before they venture further}. There are also Men {of a different speech,} with whom we have had dealings at times. They were before us in the westward march, but we passed them; NE-CM-01.5{for }they are a numerous people, and yet keep together{ and move slowly}, being all ruled by one chieftain whom they call Marach.'

Arvegil145, you shouldn't have left for that reason. I also think that the timeline is much more credible with a Round Earth Version. And others have made simillar comments. Consens was that our finished Flat Earth Version could be a good starting point for the poeple that would be interrested to create a Round Earth Version.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Arvegil145, you shouldn't have left for that reason. I also think that the timeline is much more credible with a Round Earth Version. And others have made simillar comments. Consens was that our finished Flat Earth Version could be a good starting point for the poeple that would be interrested to create a Round Earth Version.

Respectfully
Findegil

Oh, it wasn't the only reason - the other reason was that I was beginning to get uncomfortable with the whole idea of fusing together texts from the 1910s and the 1970s (for example); since then however, I've grown completely zen to all things Tolkien (even dumb stuff like RoP).

But the real reason was that 2015 was a terrible year for me (or rather its end). I'd just leave it at that.

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

I'm a bit confused - what exactly is drastic?

To Findegil's question "are suggesting that we should skip all the talk between Felagund and Bëor about the other Atani?" I was saying no, I am not suggesting such a drastic change.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Even in Tolkien's latest musings I find it incredibly unlikely that not one person (in the case of the Houses of Beor and Marach) couldn't understand the speech of the Halethrim (or vice versa).

The most isolated tribes on the planet still have some contact with other tribes - otherwise they'd collapse in an incestuous black hole.

While the Houses of Beor and Marach might've been relatively isolated from the Halethrim (especially in language), I fail to see how they had no contact? Especially in Tolkien's later conception of Men awaking c. 3,000 years before the Exile of the Noldor.

I agree with all of that, but to me those factors have to take lower priority than Tolkien's own last words on the subject.

What we know from Of Dwarves and Men is that the three tribes "differed in speech", and the Folk of Haleth so much so that they "were strangers to the other Atani, speaking an alien language". In The Problem of Ros we find: "The language of the Folk of Haleth, so far as it was later known, appears to have been unrelated (unless in remote origin) and unintelligible to the other two peoples," to the extent that "This was the reason, in addition to their admiration of the Eldar, why the chieftains, elders, and wise men and women of the Atani learned Sindarin."

Even though I think Sil77 made a small mistake by leaving in the line about "awaiting tidings", it's more easily hand-waved there because Christopher didn't include any of the above detail regarding languages. But this project does, so it stands out more to me as not fitting together. Of course there could have been some communication of some kind along the westward march, but as far as evidence for it in the latest texts, there's nothing about the folks of Haleth and Beor communicating. Unless I'm missing something. And when reading strictly the text of DM on its own, there's no reason to conclude that Haleth awaited tidings from (to paraphrase) "strangers who spoke an unintelligible language". They would have done their own reconnaissance, and it seems they did just that, by coming over secretly in small groups.

Anyway, I've spent more time on this one small suggestion than I ever intended, no doubt making it seem like a bigger issue than I actually think it is!

[Findegil]

I think the three of us are now all in agreement about the change.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

I agree with Findegil - it's all okay.

Originally Posted by Elvellon

And when reading strictly the text of DM on its own, there's no reason to conclude that Haleth awaited tidings from (to paraphrase) "strangers who spoke an unintelligible language".

Just a minor tidbit - while the DM mentions Haleth as being one of the original leaders of the Three Houses, CT has this to say:

Haleth was not the name of the chieftain who commanded the Folk of Haleth when they first came to Beleriand: see XI.221-2 and the genealogical tree, XI.237. But this is probably not significant, in view of what is said at the end of the paragraph: these people 'were called the Folk of Haleth, for Haleth was the name of their chieftainess who led them to the woods north of Doriath where they were permitted to dwell.'

- 'Of Dwarves and Men', note 41, p. 325


However, in the same note CT goes on to say:

On the other hand, the statement that Hador was the name of the chieftain who led the Folk of Hador into Beleriand seems to ignore that greatly enlarged and altered history that had entered in the chapter 'Of the Coming of Men into the West' (cf. note 38), according to which it was Marach who led that people over the Mountains, and Hador himself, though he gave his name to the people, was a descendant of Marach in the fourth generation (see XI.218-19 and the genealogical tree, XI.234).

I have a sneaking suspicion (nothing concrete of course) that Tolkien followed up on his swap of Magor and Hador and ultimately ended up further swapping Marach with Hador - or at any rate, perhaps he was to identify Marach with Hador ('Marach' being a Mannish name and 'Hador' being an Elvish one, I can easily imagine Marach being called Hador by the Elves).

Of course, all this is pure speculation and shouldn't be included in the work - but I always wondered why Hador was included with the likes of Hurin, Turin and Beren when Elrond was comparing Frodo to the heroic 'elf-friends of old': he is important obviously, but that important?

Perhaps Tolkien also felt that way, and just like in the case Galadriel and Celeborn, he kept progressively elevating his status to match Elrond's description of him.

Anyway, I'm rambling...

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Just a minor tidbit - while the DM mentions Haleth as being one of the original leaders of the Three Houses, CT has this to say:

Yep, that was pure laziness on my part. I got tired of typing "folk of".