Tolkien's final First Age timeline

[Arvegil145]

@Huinesoron

I think I found a late (c. 1968 or later) quote from an Eldarin Hands, Fingers and Numerals-related text that might be of consequence regarding the timing of the Dwarven awakening:

The Ered Luin were the remains of the mountain range that formed the eastern boundary of Beleriand (usually called by the Eldar Ered Lindon), difficult to cross. But the Dwarves had built some great Mansions in those mountains (commanding the only passes), which had certainly been founded long, even in Elvish time, before the coming of the exiled Noldor, probably before the Eldar of the Great Journey ever reached Beleriand.

- Vinyar Tengwar 48, 'Variation D/L in Common Eldarin. (Note 1)', §3, p. 24 (bold font is my addition)

[Arvegil145]

@Huinesoron: another late (written on paper dated to 1968, text itself probably even later) text from the NoME that might just be the latest conception about the duration of the First Age that Tolkien wrote:

The legends speak of a sojourn of many years and long debates before the Vanyar and Noldor after long exploration began the crossing “by the pass under the Red Mountain”. They were followed by some two-thirds of the Teleri. A third, mainly belonging to the folk of Olwë, had become during the delay well contented, and remained behind. There was no contact between these Silvan Elves and the Grey Elves, the Sindar, who in the event also remained in Middle-earth and never crossed the Great Sea, until the Second Age and the ruin of Beleriand. In Mannish terms that was a time as long maybe as all the years that now lie between us and the War of the Ring.

- The Nature of Middle-earth, 'Silvan Elves & Silvan Elvish', Text 1, pp. 357-8


So, even if you assume the earlier, conservative 1958 figure of c. 6,000 years (from the Letters) - that still leaves 6,000 years between the sundering of the Nandor and the end of the War of Wrath.

If you assume the later, 1960 figure from the NoME - that's c. 9,250 years.

In any case, this expands the timeline massively.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

So, even if you assume the earlier, conservative 1958 figure of c. 6,000 years (from the Letters) - that still leaves 6,000 years between the sundering of the Nandor and the end of the War of Wrath.

If you assume the later, 1960 figure from the NoME - that's c. 9,250 years.

In any case, this expands the timeline massively.

Oh dear. XD

Linking the Ages discussion and my Late Timeline to keep it together... there are a few Timeline texts which might come after this, but nothing which affects the bulk of the dating. EDIT: and the Arvegil timeline

Do we have any version of any timeline which puts 6000 years between the sundering of the Teleri and the end of the First Age? The Late Timeline makes it about 3500 years, so we'd need to double the length somewhere.

Alternately - this seriously post-dates the last comment on how long ago the Elder Days were (by almost a decade). Could it mean that the War of the Ring ended ca 1500 BC? That would make the Fourth Age begin roughly with the founding of Mycenaean Greece and the New Kingdom of Egypt. That... kind of works, actually?

EDIT: I am working on a comparison table of the different timelines (Tolkien's or ours). I need to Have My Books to get the rest of the dates in, but you can see the shape of it.

hS

[Arvegil145]

Do we have any version of any timeline which puts 6000 years between the sundering of the Teleri and the end of the First Age? The Late Timeline makes it about 3500 years, so we'd need to double the length somewhere.

Alternately - this seriously post-dates the last comment on how long ago the Elder Days were (by almost a decade). Could it mean that the War of the Ring ended ca 1500 BC? That would make the Fourth Age begin roughly with the founding of Mycenaean Greece and the New Kingdom of Egypt. That... kind of works, actually?

Well, I think the earlier timelines (ones dealing with the Great Journey) have absurdly long figures, but not in this specific range of c. 6,000 years IIRC.


As to the extended duration - remember that footnote in the 'Elvish Ages & Numenorean' about the timespan between Elves coming to Aman and the end of the War of Wrath being 'very like longer [than 3,100 years]': the one dealing with Celeborn's age and his descent from Elmo?

Depending on how you stretch the definition of 'longer than 3,100 years' - this can work. Especially since I think the quote in my OP might refer to the bulk of that extra time being spent in the events in Aman/Beleriand, and not on, say, the part of the Journey from Hithaeglir to the coast of Beleriand.


And as for your suggestion about the timespan between us and the War of the Ring being much shorter - it's possible, but unlikely I think (if anything, leave Tolkien to his own devices and he would most probably make it even longer than 9,250 years, judging by the ever more 'realistic' direction he was taking the legendarium over the decades following the LOTR).

The most important thing though is that while we can speculate on new figures, truth is there really are only 2 canonical figures he ever gave - and we should follow the latest (the 1960 one, that is, unless some new information surfaces later).



All in all, I would follow the 1960 figure + the footnote to the 'Elvish Ages & Numenorean' and extended the Elves' stay in Aman.



P.S. Did you see my above post about the Awaking of the Dwarves, the one immediately before the 'extended timeline'?

Also, I've since got around to the 'Telerin Celeborn' idea - it's been really consistent in the last 5 or 6 years of Tolkien's life, and it would neatly give us the opportunity to include Gilitiro from the new PE23 as a possible son of Olwe.

Additionally, I've also been fairly convinced that the 'Celebrimbor in Nargothrond' footnote from the PoME might be much later than I previously thought, and in fact Tolkien's latest word on the subject.


Finally, I pretty much abandoned my own shorter timeline - really the only thing it has going for it is that it lines up more elegantly with the duration of the following Ages (as well as having only 6 generations at Cuivienen) - but other than that, it clearly falls short of Tolkien's later intentions.

[Huinesoron]

As Arvegil says, the good news for the Late Timeline is that it's explicitly using Tolkien's latest (written) thoughts. So until a new text appears, this Timeline has place 9258 years between the crossing of the Misty Mountains and the end of the First Age.

Version 5 of the timeline is now ongoing; I've highlighted all the dates which will need changing. The fundamental problem is that the only source for most of the Aman years is the Annals, which are so much older than the rest of the sources that it's not even funny.

I think the timeline down to the Noldor reaching Aman is solid (it's basically all from one source). That means there are a firm 8495 SY between the Noldor landing in Valinor and Fingolfin landing in Middle-earth. That time has to be broken up to reflect:

1. The 367 VY (= 3670 or 3516 or 52 848 SY) of the Annals of Aman.
2. The same timespan in the Grey Annals, which references the three ages of Melkor's chaining.
3. The various comments on the lineage of Finwe in the Shibboleth and Finwe and Miriel.
4. The fact that, somehow and for some reason, the Noldor only had two generations of children in that time.

At least it's exactly 59 Valian Years... that makes it look like a little thought went into it. I'm going to have to go back and look at the text on Elvish aging, see if I can pull out any useful hints about them aging slower in Aman.

EDIT: I've also edited the stuff on the Dwarves in, though I don't think it's added any new dates.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Tolkien's last comment touching on the aging of the Eldar in Aman is from NoME 1.XVIII (1965): "Elvish ages must be counted in two different stages: growth-years (GY) and life-years (LY). The GYs were relatively swift and in Middle-earth = 3 loar. The LYs were very slow and in Middle-earth = 144 loar." The obvious implication here is that outside Middle-earth, ie in Aman, the GY and LY were different.

But how different? The last comment I can find on the point is way back in NoME 1.XII, before almost all of the genealogies, which baldly states: "It appears that in Aman the Quendi were little affected in their modes of growth (olmie) and life (coivie)," despite most other life in Aman aging as if 1VY = 1 sun-year, rather than 144. That contradicts the implication of XVIII, and moreover is not very helpful for the massive timescale I've been landed with!

But... the last comment before that appears in the notes to the same text, where a "prior" (per CFH) version of that passage said something slightly different: that the coivie remained unchanged in Aman, because it was already running at the Aman rate, but the olmie was slowed down.

I think that passage probably marks the best compromise between the various issues here. If the growth-years of the Eldar are 144 SY rather than 3 SY for the Aman era, then per XVIII it would take 3456 SY for an Aman elf to reach full growth. If they married and had their first children at full-growth, the third Aman generation just about exactly half-grown when the Trees died. That's Celebrimbor at least, and some combination of Orodreth, Finduilas, and Gil-Galad; that actually works pretty well? We know Galadriel was "not yet full grown", and this 3456-SY childhood might finally make sense of that.

hS

[Arvegil145]

I think a far simpler and a far better answer is that the lives of the Eldar in Aman compared to Middle-earth were something like the lives of the Edain in Numenor vs those in Middle-earth: i.e. they were blessed with peace, prosperity and eternity - and as such they tended to focus every which way, from artifice/science to art to making more Eldar.

This is why I think there really isn't any rhyme or reason behind Aman births. After all, there's always another tomorrow untainted by Melkor in their eyes...


EDIT: Oh - how did you arrive at 9,258 years? Tolkien was writing my OP text in c. 1970. In our version the Bel. years last for 600 years - as they do in the 1960 comment about the 7th Age: it should probably be 9,260 years.