Tolkien's final First Age timeline

[Arvegil145]

First of, I have to apologize for my tone in the above post - I haven't slept for two days and for some reason decided to post here. Not that any of that is an excuse.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I feel like there were lots of things not written about by Tolkien post-AAm/GA; that doesn't mean they were discarded. The Lamps were always something of an afterthought to the Trees; it's entirely possible Tolkien was simply waiting until he had the "round-world Trees" story straightened out before bothering to think about the Lamps.

My biggest problem with the Lamps post-'Round World legendarium' (other than their complete absence) is their necessity.

There was a clear purpose behind them in the 'Flat World legendarium' - they were the original light source on Arda back then: however, since the Sun existed from the beginning in Tolkien's later framework, there is obviously no need for a light source other than the Sun, except in the sense of said light containing the 'light of Iluvatar' that originally was contained within the Sun.

That is where the Two Trees come into focus - their role in the RW legendarium isn't that of a light source per se, but as a last vestige of that 'holy' light, which later on is in turn only preserved in the silmarils.

Problem is, the Trees were never intended to be the original source of light illuminating the whole world, even in the earliest legendarium - the Lamps filled that purpose in the pre-RW legendarium. But then, Tolkien changed his mind and made the Sun into the original source of light instead (assuming the same role that the Lamps had previously), with the Trees being created much later to preserve the 'holy' light which the Sun originally had.

In other words, from a story-telling perspective, the Sun replaced the Lamps in its primary role as the original main source of light on Arda (or Ambar in the RW version).

Or to put it this way:

1) 'Flat World legendarium': Lamps > Trees > Sun and Moon/Silmarils

2) 'Round World legendarium' (concerning the carriers of the 'holy' light): Sun > Trees > Silmarils

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I mean, Tolkien devoted whole calendars to the phases of the moon, it's entirely possible the seasonal rising of Orion and how it changes over millennia was also on his mind. However, in my view the later explicit 16 000 years quote trumps any possible unrecorded workings on that score.

Not sure if you missed it, but I did put together a bare-bones Unified Timeline, from the entry of the Valar into Arda to the discovery of the Notion Club Papers.

Yeah, I was being embarrassingly flippant about the whole situation regarding 'astronomy'.


In regards to your timeline, I missed it - I'll check it out.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

First of, I have to apologize for my tone in the above post - I haven't slept for two days and for some reason decided to post here. Not that any of that is an excuse.

It's not a problem. You came across as abrupt but not angry. Hopefully you've managed to sleep now?

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

My biggest problem with the Lamps post-'Round World legendarium' (other than their complete absence) is their necessity.

There was a clear purpose behind them in the 'Flat World legendarium' - they were the original light source on Arda back then: however, since the Sun existed from the beginning in Tolkien's later framework, there is obviously no need for a light source other than the Sun, except in the sense of said light containing the 'light of Iluvatar' that originally was contained within the Sun.

Interesting... I went back and looked at the BoLT version, and the course of the "light of Iluvatar" is even more complex: it starts with light as a sort of floating liquid that is gathered into the Lamps and then regathered into the cauldrons Kulullin and Silindrin, before the Trees ever sprout.

Your mention of the Sun no longer having its "holy" light in the Round World conception makes me think of the BoLT "rekindling of the Magic Sun", in which the Sun was originally strongly magical but was defiled by Melko (who may or may not have killed its pilot). Obviously the idea that the Eldar could restore the power of the Sun by sailing Eressea over to Europe and fighting Germans didn't come back, but it seems like Tolkien returned to at least some of this. Do you know what he decided had reduced the "holiness" of the Sun in the Round World model?

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It's not a problem. You came across as abrupt but not angry. Hopefully you've managed to sleep now?

I wasn't angry as such, but I definitely was a prick, so an apology is the least I could do.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Interesting... I went back and looked at the BoLT version, and the course of the "light of Iluvatar" is even more complex: it starts with light as a sort of floating liquid that is gathered into the Lamps and then regathered into the cauldrons Kulullin and Silindrin, before the Trees ever sprout.

Your mention of the Sun no longer having its "holy" light in the Round World conception makes me think of the BoLT "rekindling of the Magic Sun", in which the Sun was originally strongly magical but was defiled by Melko (who may or may not have killed its pilot). Obviously the idea that the Eldar could restore the power of the Sun by sailing Eressea over to Europe and fighting Germans didn't come back, but it seems like Tolkien returned to at least some of this. Do you know what he decided had reduced the "holiness" of the Sun in the Round World model?

I mean, assuming that Tolkien kept in his head through the years what he wrote in the 'Myths Transformed', the (original) Sun was effectively...assaulted...out of existence by Melkor:

But Melkor, as hath been told, lusted after all light, desiring it jealously for his own. Moreover he soon perceived that in Âs there was a light that had been concealed from him, and which had a power of which he had not thought. Therefore, afire at once with desire and anger, he went to Asa, and he spoke to Árië, saying: 'I have chosen thee, and thou shalt be my spouse, even as Varda is to Manwë, and together we shall wield all splendour and mastery. Then the kingship of Arda shall be mine in deed as in right, and thou shalt be the partner of my glory.' But Árië rejected Melkor and rebuked him, saying: 'Speak not of right, which thou hast long forgotten. Neither for thee nor by thee alone was Eä made; and thou shalt not be King of Arda. Beware therefore; for there is in the heart of Âs a light in which thou hast no part, and a fire which will not serve thee. Put not out thy hand to it. For though thy potency may destroy it, it will burn thee and thy brightness will be made dark.'

Melkor did not heed her warning, but cried in his wrath: 'The gift which is withheld I take!' and he ravished Árië, desiring both to abase her and to take into himself her powers. Then the spirit of Árië went up like a flame of anguish and wrath, and departed for ever from Arda; and the Sun was bereft of the Light of Varda, and was stained by the assault of Melkor. And being for a long while without rule it flamed with excessive heat or grew too cool, so that grievous hurt was done to Arda and the fashioning of the world was marred and delayed, until with long toil the Valar made a new order. But even as Árië foretold, Melkor was burned and his brightness darkened, and he gave no more light, but light pained him exceedingly and he hated it.

- MR, 'Myths Transformed', Text II, pp. 380-1

[Arvegil145]

@Huinesoron

Do you have any new insights on the subject, or otherwise any changes you'd make to your timeline?

Just looking for an update (if there's any).

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

@Huinesoron

Do you have any new insights on the subject, or otherwise any changes you'd make to your timeline?

Just looking for an update (if there's any).

I don't think so; nothing new has come up, and the Late Timeline doesn't include the Lamps (which were the last query we had). The Unified Timeline does, but that whole document is a dubious string of assumptions anyway.

As far as I know, the only new information since we last looked at this is the Poems book, and the only thing I've heard is in there and relevant is the English version of the Complaint of Mim. I haven't seen that, though, and don't know if it has a date associated with it; or if the whole narrative is even included in the book.

hS

[James the Just]

Happy New Year!

From Tolkien Gateway:

Unlike other reckonings of time created by J.R.R. Tolkien to set his legendarium, the Valian Years did not have a complete and definitive form. In the 1930s and 1940s, Tolkien handled a length of the Valian year fluctuated slightly around a round number of 10 solar years. In the notes to The Annals of Aman, Tolkien stated a single Valian year lasts 1,000 Valian days, defined as the duration of a complete flowering of the Two Trees of Valinor. Each of these Valian days is divided into 12 Valian hours, with each Valian hour having a duration equivalent to 7 solar hours. Thus, a single Valian year would last 84,000 solar hours. As a single solar year is approximately 8,766 hours, it was easy to calculate the equivalence of 9.582 solar years for each Valian year.

This is a little bit incorrect. According to Tolkien himself a year is 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds. This would be 8,765.812778 hours, for a Valian Year of 9.58268242 years.

But why did Tolkien choose a Valian Year of 84,000 hours to begin with? It seems rather odd. Perhaps there is an explanation.

The length of time from the new tally of years beginning with the Years of the Trees to the Years of the Sun is 1,500 Valian Years, or 14,374 mortal ones. This comes out to 99.82 Valian Years of the longer sort (144 years). What if he had an age of 100 Valian Years in mind? It seems too close to be coincidental. If that's the case then the short Valian Year would be exactly 9.6 years, not 9.582.

[Arvegil145]

@Huinesoron

I think I found a late (c. 1968 or later) quote from an Eldarin Hands, Fingers and Numerals-related text that might be of consequence regarding the timing of the Dwarven awakening:

The Ered Luin were the remains of the mountain range that formed the eastern boundary of Beleriand (usually called by the Eldar Ered Lindon), difficult to cross. But the Dwarves had built some great Mansions in those mountains (commanding the only passes), which had certainly been founded long, even in Elvish time, before the coming of the exiled Noldor, probably before the Eldar of the Great Journey ever reached Beleriand.

- Vinyar Tengwar 48, 'Variation D/L in Common Eldarin. (Note 1)', §3, p. 24 (bold font is my addition)