Isengard no!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

...or conversing with Formendacil over the years.

To borrow a quote from HS:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

That doesn't mean [he was] right, obviously.

[Morthoron]

Stop. Just stop. Tolkien pronounces it "Eye-zen-gard". He utters Isengard several times starting at about 28:42...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=polMdXuwFw8

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I am not sure what Tolkien was thinking in that recording! Because - all discussions of Appendix E aside - Isengard is definitely not Sindarin, nor is it Westron. It's Rohirric, that is, Old English. (The Sindarin name is Angrenost, a literal translation; both mean Westron/English "iron fortress.")

But there is no question that in OE, I is the frontmost of fronted vowels; it has a long and a short form but those forms are [i] and [ɪ], that is roughly "ee" and "ih." Doesn't matter that modern German would render its cognate Eisen; German and English vowels drifted apart a long time ago.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I am not sure what Tolkien was thinking in that recording! Because - all discussions of Appendix E aside - Isengard is definitely not Sindarin, nor is it Westron. It's Rohirric, that is, Old English. (The Sindarin name is Angrenost, a literal translation; both mean Westron/English "iron fortress.")

But there is no question that in OE, I is the frontmost of fronted vowels; it has a long and a short form but those forms are [i] and [ɪ], that is roughly "ee" and "ih." Doesn't matter that modern German would render its cognate Eisen; German and English vowels drifted apart a long time ago.

So you're saying J. R. R. Tolkien is wrong about his own works?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Because - all discussions of Appendix E aside - Isengard is definitely not Sindarin, nor is it Westron. It's Rohirric, that is, Old English.

But going straight back to Appendix E, is it Old English or modernised Old English? The note at the end of part II starts:

So also in the case of the personal and place-names of Rohan (where they have not been modernised), except that here éa and éo are diphthongs...

The sounds he names are from the Old English "translated" forms: Éomer's Rohirric name does not begin éo. So he's distinguishing here between Old English forms and modernised Old English.

The modernized forms are easily recognised and are intended to be pronounced as in English. They are mostly place-names: as Dunharrow (for Dúnharg), except Shadowfax and Wormrongue.

Appendix F calls out Snowbourn as a fourth word where he "modernised the forms and spelling", and cites Edoras as one he didn't. It also explains the rationale:

... I have followed the Hobbits. They altered the names they heard in the same way, if they were made of elements that they recognised, or if they resembled place-names in the Shire; but many they left alone.

I would argue that "Isen", specifically, counts as an "element that they recognised", because it appears in the name of Pippin's direct ancestor: Thain Isengrim II. Pippin, Merry, and Frodo actually share two great-uncles whose names use "Isen-": Thain Isengrim III, and his youngest brother, Isengar, who went to Sea in his youth.

On the basis of Appendix F, "Isengard" is a perfect example of a name Merry and/or Pippin would have "modernised", which - per Appendix E - means it would be pronounced as if it were modern English.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

But going straight back to Appendix E, is it Old English or modernised Old English? The note at the end of part II starts:



The sounds he names are from the Old English "translated" forms: Éomer's Rohirric name does not begin éo. So he's distinguishing here between Old English forms and modernised Old English.



Appendix F calls out Snowbourn as a fourth word where he "modernised the forms and spelling", and cites Edoras as one he didn't. It also explains the rationale:



I would argue that "Isen", specifically, counts as an "element that they recognised", because it appears in the name of Pippin's direct ancestor: Thain Isengrim II. Pippin, Merry, and Frodo actually share two great-uncles whose names use "Isen-": Thain Isengrim III, and his youngest brother, Isengar, who went to Sea in his youth.

On the basis of Appendix F, "Isengard" is a perfect example of a name Merry and/or Pippin would have "modernised", which - per Appendix E - means it would be pronounced as if it were modern English.

hS

Ah, but I would submit that Isengard is not modernized at all; you could show it to Alfred the Great and he would recognize it immediately, or at least its compound meaning (since it isn't an attested OE word). This would put it in the same categort as Orthanc, Meduseld and Firienholt (this last was altered from Firgenholt, but for the purpose of preserving the original pronunciation) As to the Hobbits and their familiarity: Isengrim is borrowed from Old Flemish and thus Frankish which had the same I-sounds as Anglo-Saxon (A-S, Old Saxon and Frankish were very closely related). Isengar seems to be an invened name based on it.

[Morthoron]

*Shrugs*

I will go with the author on this one. Repeating the word numerous times. Each time with the same pronunciation. No variation. Whether he was not thinking or in his cups, he seemed lucid enough to navigate the ponderous poetic patterns of enraged Ents.