The creature Gothmog at the Siege of Minas Tirith

[JeffF.]

I never imagined that Gothmog, Lieutenant of Minas Morgul as he is called in RotK, was an orc. Given the hierarchy of Sauron's forces his Nazgul seem to be the leaders of his forces particularly in Minas Morgul the city of the ringwraiths. The Nazgul are described as great kings, sorcerers and warriors; most if not all were great leaders so I always thought of Gothmog as a Nazgul, the second-in-command at Minas Morgul. Unifinished Tales describes Khamul the Black Easterling as the second highest ranking Nazgul but he is also Sauron's lord over Dol Guldor during the War of the Ring. Some might say that once the High Nazgul was killed at the Battle of Pelennor that Khamul would have taken over but in UT it says that Khamul's power was the most diminished in daylight and this might explain why Gothmog, in my view the third ranking of all the Nazgul, would take over command since Sauron's artificial darkness was broken just before Theoden charges with the Rohirrim. I just don't see the eight remaining Nazgul falling under the command of some orc chieftain or brigand after the fall of the High Nazgul.

Any thoughts on Gothmog?

[Mithadan]

Gothmog was the name of the chief of the Balrogs in the First Age. I think Tolkien's use of this name was intentional and signifies that the Third Age Gothmog is not a mere Orc chieftain but rather an entity of significant power. When I first read LoTR, or at least before I made any connection between the names, I assumed that Gothmog (TA) was a Nazgul. I also note that the actual quote from LoTR is "Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul" which also strongly suggests a Nazgul. Making Gothmog second in command for the Battle of the Pelennor is not necessarily inconsistent with Khamul being "second to the Chief [Nazgul]". Khamul may simply have had other duties in the battle. Also, as Khamul was resident in charge of Dol Guldur, the legions of Morgul may have been better inclined to follow a leader they were familiar with, the lieutenant of that city.

While Khamul may have been the second "highest ranking" of the Nazgul at least per Unfinished Tales, we must keep also in mind that The Hunt for the Ring is truly unfinished. Christopher Tolkien comments that portions of the draft were superseded by The Tale of Years and JRRT had not prepared this excerpt for publication. While I hate to raise the issue of canon, I wonder if Tolkien would have modified his description of Khamul if he compared this draft with LoTR or perhaps clarified his "ranking" with regards to Gothmog.

As an aside, Tolkien was notorious for not reusing names (there are some exceptions such as Glorfindel, who was apparently the same Elf in the First and Third Ages notwithstanding his death). Yet he had no problem reusing the name Grond so perhaps it is not surprising that he chose to reuse Gothmog.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

When I first read LoTR, or at least before I made any connection between the names, I assumed that Gothmog (TA) was a Nazgul. I also note that the actual quote from LoTR is "Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul" which also strongly suggests a Nazgul. Making Gothmog second in command for the Battle of the Pelennor is not necessarily inconsistent with Khamul being "second to the Chief [Nazgul]". Khamul may simply have had other duties in the battle. Also, as Khamul was resident in charge of Dol Guldur, the legions of Morgul may have been better inclined to follow a leader they were familiar with, the lieutenant of that city.

In fact, you could make a connection with the original Gothmog and Sauron in the First Age. For example, Sauron is second in command to Morgoth, but Gothmog is in charge of the armies. Maybe it is a similar case here, except that here the Witch-King actually participates in the fighting, unlike Morgoth most of the time.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

As an aside, Tolkien was notorious for not reusing names (there are some exceptions such as Glorfindel, who was apparently the same Elf in the First and Third Ages notwithstanding his death). Yet he had no problem reusing the name Grond so perhaps it is not surprising that he chose to reuse Gothmog.

Perhaps, given that naming is a creative act, and given that Tolkien denies that evil can create, there is a point being made here? Elves, the paragons of creativity, are expected to come up with new and original names, whereas Orks/Evil generally are not.

Also, even more speculatively, naming something is part of what we do to individualise people or things, part of what we do to give them unique worth. It strikes me as typical of Melkor and his ilk to not, for those very reasons, name anything. And, on that note, "Gothmog" is Sindarin, not Black Speech, so it's almost certainly a name given by either the Elves or the Dúnedain--unless Sauron was deliberately evoking the Balrog when he or the Witch-king gave Gothmog II his name.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Perhaps, given that naming is a creative act, and given that Tolkien denies that evil can create, there is a point being made here? Elves, the paragons of creativity, are expected to come up with new and original names, whereas Orks/Evil generally are not.

Also, even more speculatively, naming something is part of what we do to individualise people or things, part of what we do to give them unique worth. It strikes me as typical of Melkor and his ilk to not, for those very reasons, name anything. And, on that note, "Gothmog" is Sindarin, not Black Speech, so it's almost certainly a name given by either the Elves or the Dúnedain--unless Sauron was deliberately evoking the Balrog when he or the Witch-king gave Gothmog II his name.

Men seem to like to reuse names too in JRRT's work; both Aragon and Denethor are technically the second members of their lines to bear those names, though to my knowedge no one in the stories seems to call them the Second (as a bonus Denethor's father, Ecthelion is the second Ecthelion in the steward line as well). We're used to kings bearing the same names for many generations in our own real world history, so it doesn't really jump out at one as much as the Gothmog naming does. Now that I think of it, wasnt there also a Minas Tirith in the first age as well, wasn't that the name of the fortress on Tol Sirion?

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

wasnt there also a Minas Tirith in the first age as well, wasn't that the name of the fortress on Tol Sirion?

Yes it was built by Finrod and where he died defending Beren, Tol-in-Gaurhoth was the island when Sauron inhabited it.

[Boromir88]

Alfirin, and Fellowship Boromir was actually Boromir II. There was the Steward Boromir, who was also a famed 'warrior,' but life was ended too soon suffering a fatal blow from the Witch-King.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Perhaps, given that naming is a creative act, and given that Tolkien denies that evil can create, there is a point being made here? Elves, the paragons of creativity, are expected to come up with new and original names, whereas Orks/Evil generally are not.

Also, even more speculatively, naming something is part of what we do to individualise people or things, part of what we do to give them unique worth. It strikes me as typical of Melkor and his ilk to not, for those very reasons, name anything. And, on that note, "Gothmog" is Sindarin, not Black Speech, so it's almost certainly a name given by either the Elves or the Dúnedain--unless Sauron was deliberately evoking the Balrog when he or the Witch-king gave Gothmog II his name.

i agree

[JeffF.]

There is also the possibility that the Kingdom of Angmar was named after the inidvidual whose name was Angmar. The name has no previous affiliation with any region in the North and appears only after the Witch King forms it there.

Just an opinion but i haven't noticed if anyone has raised the possibility.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

There is also the possibility that the Kingdom of Angmar was named after the inidvidual whose name was Angmar. The name has no previous affiliation with any region in the North and appears only after the Witch King forms it there.
.

Edit: Sorry I have overlooked Pitchwife's post and told exactly the same thing: Angmar is certainly a place-name.
Morover, (unlike Morgul) the name Angmar has nothing dark or ominous about it, most likely it refers to the presence of iron in the mountains.

Also note this quote:

‘It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. Its lands lay on both sides of the Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other fell creatures. [The lord of that land was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong.]’ LOTR, App A

It is clearly said that the lord of Angmar was known as the Witch-King (Aran Morgul in Sindarin I believe), not as "Angmar".

[narfforc]

Readers suggestions that the later Gothmog was a Nazgul or a Black Numenorean are no more than speculation; in the absence of further detail by Tolkien.
It is not clear if lieutenant here means the second-in-command of Minas Morgul or, more likely, second-in-command to the Witch-king, who is sometimes called the Morgul-lord. (Hammond/Scull)

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Readers suggestions that the later Gothmog was a Nazgul or a Black Numenorean are no more than speculation; in the absence of further detail by Tolkien.
It is not clear if lieutenant here means the second-in-command of Minas Morgul or, more likely, second-in-command to the Witch-king, who is sometimes called the Morgul-lord. (Hammond/Scull)

Why is the latter more likely? The Witch-King was never called Morgul. It seems more likely to me that lieutenant of Morgul should be taken to mean lieutenant of Morgul. Actually, why does it matter which is intended? Both would almost certainly be positions reserved for Nazgul.

The assumption that the second-in-command on the Pelennor was a Nazgul is a fairly reasonable one.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by obloquy

The assumption that the second-in-command on the Pelennor was a Nazgul is a fairly reasonable one.

I'd agree.

Otherwise the lieutenant of Morgul had to be something like a really special creature and sure Tolkien would have described that kind of an "one more interesting weirdo" more closely - whether it be a very accomplished troll, a great werewolf, a Balrog (like the name suggests) or something else. The fact that he is just named as the second in command would suggest there is nothing unusual in it ie. it would be another Nazgûl just second in command?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The fact that he is just named as the second in command would suggest there is nothing unusual in it ie. it would be another Nazgûl just second in command?

I agree.

Moreover, let us look at the history of the sentence about Gothmog:

In an immediately rejected version of the passage in which the new hosts streaming out of Osgiliath are described, it was said of the Black Captain: 'He was gone, and the Nazgul in fear had fled to Mordor bearing ill tidings'; but this was lost in the rewriting of the passage where appears Gothmog lieutenant of Morgul - HOME 8

If Gothmog were meant to be a nazgul, then the rejection of the sentence about all the remaining Nazgul fleeing seems explained: one (Gothmog) remained on the field and took command. Also as Tolkien put Gothmog in while editing out the sentence about the nazgul, it explains why he failed to mention that Gothmog was one of them: at the moment it seemed quite obvious to Tolkien.

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Why is the latter more likely? The Witch-King was never called Morgul. It seems more likely to me that lieutenant of Morgul should be taken to mean lieutenant of Morgul. Actually, why does it matter which is intended? Both would almost certainly be positions reserved for Nazgul.

The assumption that the second-in-command on the Pelennor was a Nazgul is a fairly reasonable one.

Yes I agree and I was merely quoting from A Readers Companion. However my own view is very similar. All the Nazgul were Kings of Men and probably at sometime in their life had military training of a degree far beyond the normal generals found within an army. There is the misconception that the Nazgul were just mindless automatons, without any memory of their previous lives. There is also The Will of Sauron to consider, once The Witch-king was nullified on the battlefield, the next best point of control over the Army would naturally be another Nazgul, due to their stronger link with him. Seniority on the battlefield was something that Lieutenant Tolkien would have understood, once The Commanding Officer is killed, The Senior Major takes over. I think that Tolkien calls Gothmog 'Lieutenant of Morgul', because he sees him as The Morgul-lords second-in-command.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by obloquy

The Witch-King was never called Morgul.

Well, yes and no...

As a matter of fact it is the name "Witch-King" which is rarely used in LOTR: only once in the text itself (and it refers to the Angmar period) and several times in the Appendices, most of the cases also refer to the Angmar period.

In other cases in LOTR he is called "The Morgul-lord" (Many meetings), "the Morgul-king" (the Stairs of Cirith Ungol) "Lord of Morgul"(App. A), and only once "King of Minas Morgul" (App. A.).

The sentence about Gothmog II looks like one of the occasions where the WK seems to be called simply "Morgul". (I believe that all the mentions of "legions of Morgul" in LOTR mean the "Witch-King's legions", not "the host of Minas Morgul", because the host of the Minas Morgul fortress constituted only about a third of the army assembled at the Pelennor).
There is another sentence in the "Hunt for the Ring" published in Reader's Companion, where the WK is called simply "Angmar".

As to the the WK' names I have my own little theory:

In Sindarin "King (Lord) of Morgul" would most likely sound as "Aran Morgul". It sounds like a name given by enemies, yet flattering, one that he would accept and use. "Lord of Black Magic!" A title more befitting Sauron himself, I would say. Not bad for he who had been a mere Man once...

And if we go a tad further and consider how "Aran Morgul" would translate into Westron by a person from the "good side" - what do we get?
The Witch-King! King of bad, Dark Sorcery = witchcraft.
Translate both parts of the name and you get the Witch-King, translate only the title and you get Lord/King of Morgul.

I believe the Nazgul Lord never changed his name: Aran Morgul he had been in Angmar, Aran Morgul he remained in Minas Morgul, the city named after him. Likely the Minas Morgul fortress, the former Minas Ithil, took its new name from its new ruler, not the other way round: it may simply mean "Morgul's Tower."

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Well, yes and no...

No and no. The Witch-King was never called Morgul or Angmar, regardless of your theories or what the notorious Tolkien Companion says.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by obloquy

No and no. The Witch-King was never called Morgul or Angmar, regardless of your theories or what the notorious Tolkien Companion says.

Here is the case when he is called Angmar:

It was no doubt at the end of 1418 that Sauron (S. likely aided by Angmar) bethought him of the winged mounts; and yet withheld them, until things became almost desperate and he was forced to launch his war in haste.-RC p.263

So, why not Morgul?