The creature Gothmog at the Siege of Minas Tirith

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

As an aside, Tolkien was notorious for not reusing names (there are some exceptions such as Glorfindel, who was apparently the same Elf in the First and Third Ages notwithstanding his death). Yet he had no problem reusing the name Grond so perhaps it is not surprising that he chose to reuse Gothmog.

Perhaps, given that naming is a creative act, and given that Tolkien denies that evil can create, there is a point being made here? Elves, the paragons of creativity, are expected to come up with new and original names, whereas Orks/Evil generally are not.

Also, even more speculatively, naming something is part of what we do to individualise people or things, part of what we do to give them unique worth. It strikes me as typical of Melkor and his ilk to not, for those very reasons, name anything. And, on that note, "Gothmog" is Sindarin, not Black Speech, so it's almost certainly a name given by either the Elves or the Dúnedain--unless Sauron was deliberately evoking the Balrog when he or the Witch-king gave Gothmog II his name.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Perhaps, given that naming is a creative act, and given that Tolkien denies that evil can create, there is a point being made here? Elves, the paragons of creativity, are expected to come up with new and original names, whereas Orks/Evil generally are not.

Also, even more speculatively, naming something is part of what we do to individualise people or things, part of what we do to give them unique worth. It strikes me as typical of Melkor and his ilk to not, for those very reasons, name anything. And, on that note, "Gothmog" is Sindarin, not Black Speech, so it's almost certainly a name given by either the Elves or the Dúnedain--unless Sauron was deliberately evoking the Balrog when he or the Witch-king gave Gothmog II his name.

Men seem to like to reuse names too in JRRT's work; both Aragon and Denethor are technically the second members of their lines to bear those names, though to my knowedge no one in the stories seems to call them the Second (as a bonus Denethor's father, Ecthelion is the second Ecthelion in the steward line as well). We're used to kings bearing the same names for many generations in our own real world history, so it doesn't really jump out at one as much as the Gothmog naming does. Now that I think of it, wasnt there also a Minas Tirith in the first age as well, wasn't that the name of the fortress on Tol Sirion?

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

wasnt there also a Minas Tirith in the first age as well, wasn't that the name of the fortress on Tol Sirion?

Yes it was built by Finrod and where he died defending Beren, Tol-in-Gaurhoth was the island when Sauron inhabited it.

[Boromir88]

Alfirin, and Fellowship Boromir was actually Boromir II. There was the Steward Boromir, who was also a famed 'warrior,' but life was ended too soon suffering a fatal blow from the Witch-King.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Alfirin, and Fellowship Boromir was actually Boromir II. There was the Steward Boromir, who was also a famed 'warrior,' but life was ended too soon suffering a fatal blow from the Witch-King.

Oh yeah, forgot about that one. What's a bit creepy is that Boromir I is the son of Denethor I son of Ecthelion I and Boromir II is the son Of Denthethor II son of Ecthelion II. Actually Faramir's a II as well, there was a Farmir I according to the ROTK appendix (youngest son of King Ondoher, was supposed by law to stay in Gondor when his father and older brother Artamir rode off to war, but followed them in secret and was slain in battle (as were they))

[LadyBrooke]

Also Denethor and Ecthelion were elves in the first age and there was Boromir son of Boron, also in the first age. Now what did Tolkien mean about not reusing names?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually Faramir's a II as well, there was a Farmir I according to the ROTK appendix (youngest son of King Ondoher, was supposed by law to stay in Gondor when his father and older brother Artamir rode off to war, but followed them in secret and was slain in battle (as were they))

At least Faramir II was wise enough not to follow in his predecessor's footsteps- who knows what would have happened if he had tried to go to Rivendell too?

[Galin]

Well, for clarity perhaps, Tolkien himself did not say that Elves or Men did not reuse names, and in general they did reuse them.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Perhaps, given that naming is a creative act, and given that Tolkien denies that evil can create, there is a point being made here? Elves, the paragons of creativity, are expected to come up with new and original names, whereas Orks/Evil generally are not.

Also, even more speculatively, naming something is part of what we do to individualise people or things, part of what we do to give them unique worth. It strikes me as typical of Melkor and his ilk to not, for those very reasons, name anything. And, on that note, "Gothmog" is Sindarin, not Black Speech, so it's almost certainly a name given by either the Elves or the Dúnedain--unless Sauron was deliberately evoking the Balrog when he or the Witch-king gave Gothmog II his name.

i agree

[JeffF.]

There is also the possibility that the Kingdom of Angmar was named after the inidvidual whose name was Angmar. The name has no previous affiliation with any region in the North and appears only after the Witch King forms it there.

Just an opinion but i haven't noticed if anyone has raised the possibility.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

There is also the possibility that the Kingdom of Angmar was named after the inidvidual whose name was Angmar. The name has no previous affiliation with any region in the North and appears only after the Witch King forms it there.
.

Edit: Sorry I have overlooked Pitchwife's post and told exactly the same thing: Angmar is certainly a place-name.
Morover, (unlike Morgul) the name Angmar has nothing dark or ominous about it, most likely it refers to the presence of iron in the mountains.

Also note this quote:

‘It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. Its lands lay on both sides of the Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other fell creatures. [The lord of that land was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong.]’ LOTR, App A

It is clearly said that the lord of Angmar was known as the Witch-King (Aran Morgul in Sindarin I believe), not as "Angmar".

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

In English, yes. However, there seems to be no such thing as that little word in Sindarin, nor an inflected genitive like the English -'s-forms. Sindarin (like Welsh) expressed possession by word order only, the possessed following the possessor (cf Minas Tirith "Tower [of] Guard", the "of" merely implied). So Aran Morgûl does (or can) indeed mean "King of Black Sorcery".
I'm not sure how "King Morgûl" - Morgûl taken as a personal name - would be phrased correctly in Sindarin. (I have a hunch it might be Morgûl Aran - word order reversed, as in "Théoden King" - , but that's mere speculation.) Anyway, Aran Morgûl may well be ambiguous, especially for non-native speakers of Sindarin, and possibly translate as "King of Black Sorcery" or "King M.", depending on context.

Thank you for the excellent analysis of Sindarin word order.

I have checked HOME 9 where there is the draft of the rejected LOTR Epilogue with Aragorn's letter to Sam in Sindarin. It is signed:

Elessar Telcontar: Aragorn Arathornion Edhelharn, Aran Gondor ar Hir i Mbair Annui

King of Gondor is indeed "Aran Gondor" without any "of". I don't know how to translate "King Elessar", Elessar Aran or Aran Elessar, but I am no expert in Sindarin anyway.


Edit: I've found some cases of "Aran" in HOME 12:

For Orome a name had been made in Primitive Eldarin (recalling the sound of his great horn) of which Orome was the Quenya form, though in Sindarin it had become Araw, and by the Sindar he was later more often called (Aran) Tauron 'the (king) forester'. Manwe and Varda they knew only by the names 'Elder King' and 'Star-queen': Aran Einior and Elbereth.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Do we actually know that Sauron's people called Minas Morgûl by this name? The Dark Tower was called Lugbúrz by the Orcs, not Barad-dûr. Likely they would have used a Black Speech name for Minas M. as well.

Well an Orc refers to Minas Morgul by its Sindarin name:

Snaga: I’ve fought for the Tower against those stinking Morgul-rats, but a nice mess you two precious captains have made of things, fighting over the swag. -LOTR , The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Barad-Dur is indeed called Lugburz by Orcs. It is interesting that in the LOTR drafts (HOME 8) there was the Black Speech name for Minas Morgul devised: "Dushgoi":

Yes, we, Shagrat. We, mark you. But why we're going to your miserable tower I don't know. We found the spy, my lot were there first. He should be ours. He should be taken back to Dushgoi.'(47)
'Yes, and I know them, for I was told 'em by Lugburz, see? Yagfil from Dushgoi will patrol until he meets your guard, or as far as Ungol top: be will report to you before returning to report to Dushgoi. Your report was nothing. Very useful. You can take it back to Dushgoi as soon as you like.'
This was rejected as soon as written, replaced by 'Orders to you. I'm in command of this Pass. So speak civil', and with it went the last appearance of the name Dushgoi of Minas Morghul.
47. Dushgoi: Orc name for Minas Morghul.

There must have been some considerations for Tolkien to remove the name "Dushgoi" and use the Sindarin word "Morgul". (Maybe because the WK's name "Aran Morgul" was not allowed to be translated into Orc speech ? - but the latter is pure speculation )

[Galin]

Sindarin also looks to have had a possessive article, alongside word order, to express a genitival construction (of). Consider the examples in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed: Narn e-Dinuviel, 'Tale of Tinuviel' and Narn en-El *Tale of the Star (without proper diacritics here)

The Sindarin possessive article is discussed in some detail in Vinyar Tengwar 35, page 11 and note 27, along with examples like Ennyn Durin Aran Moria 'Doors (of) Durin, lord (of) Moria.