What's With this Always Going Underground - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Man-of-the-Wold · 02-18-2002, 02:32 AM

Oh, O.K., Let me try this again.

I'm just saying that Tolkien had a good little motif or recurring theme with these underground passages.
There is nothing, be it fantasy, dwarves or mountains that makes this unavoidable to the degree that he uses it as a device.
Rather it is a decision that the author makes, much of it for probably intuitive, artistic or even unconscious reasons.
I'm just suggesting we look for good ideas on what those reasons might be, as opposed to critiquing my basic premise. Post elsewhere if unenthused by this topic.
I posed character development as just one possible explanation or example. I am not saying that these underground passages (go in one side and come out another, unlike Mt. Orodruin) are the only places or ways of character development in the Books.
In fact, I think Tolkien is not given enough credit for how much beautiful character development he does include in his stories. Much of it is very subtle (being more than 'black & white') or it happens outside the plotline.
What I am saying is that these underground passages offer rather profound and momentous opportunities for the characters to grow.
One reason is that in going underground or doing associated things they must overcome fears and face unheard-of challenges, which is symbolized (not necessarily in an obvious way) by going underground itself.
In the one example of Bilbo get dragged down to Goblin-Town that this is not voluntary, by just by being with the Dwarves, Bilbo is addressing his fears, and he shows great courage and resolve in getting out, Ring or no.
I'm not saying that this underground stuff is some type of Black Box, out of which appears the light at the end of the tunnel, and voilà new character.
No, really significant things are seen and experienced down there as part of the story, which only adds to the profundity.
Not all of the characters go through a deep transformation. Admittedly, the Mines of Moria have a bigger impact on everyone but Frodo.

To return to my examples:

1. I don't see Bilbo's finding the ring as conincidence. The author did it intentional, and then made it quite clear that it be viewed as "Fate," which is only underscored by the underground aspect in that he's a different Bilbo on the other side, not only because of the One Ring, but also because of the encounter with the worst side of Hobbitness in Gollom and the pluck and pity that he learns and shows in that trial.

2. In Thranduîl's Caverns, Bilbo goes and strives for the Dwarves' benefit, and finds tremendous resourcefulness in himself, which allows him to grow in both his and the Dwarves' reckoning. Admittedly they don't change at all.

3. The passage through Erebor is a case of negative character development, not unlike Smeägol's far longer ordeal. Thorin sees in the ruin of Erebor's halls all of the past glory and hurts of his people represented, and it causes deep anger and resentful to brew and well up in his heart, which makes him greedy, wrathful and vengeful in very unfortunate ways.

4. Moria is important for Aragorn's and maybe other's development, but it is really the great challenge for Gandalf. What he'll have to face there is not unknown to his or Aragorn's heart, even if surprisingly to his mind. But that may be an example of Istari having to relearn. That he might have to make the ultimate sacrifice for the Ringbearer, while also ridding Middle-Earth of this great and evil counterpart (what's so important about wings?!) is a great test for him, and from it he is transformed into the type of wizard that he deserved to be all along.

5. The Paths of the Dead is critical for Aragorn's evolution into a true heir to the royal power of Elendil and Isíldur. He draws on Isíldur's legacy and faces demons (in a sense), but as a result openly leads his people of Gondor to victory.

6. Sam's passage (twice) through Shelob's Liar is when we see him really become the Great person that he in fact is. He realizes many things about what he wants, what he values, and what he can do (on his own).

02-18-2002, 02:32 AM	#18
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Oh, O.K., Let me try this again. I'm just saying that Tolkien had a good little motif or recurring theme with these underground passages. There is nothing, be it fantasy, dwarves or mountains that makes this unavoidable to the degree that he uses it as a device. Rather it is a decision that the author makes, much of it for probably intuitive, artistic or even unconscious reasons. I'm just suggesting we look for good ideas on what those reasons might be, as opposed to critiquing my basic premise. Post elsewhere if unenthused by this topic. I posed character development as just one possible explanation or example. I am not saying that these underground passages (go in one side and come out another, unlike Mt. Orodruin) are the only places or ways of character development in the Books. In fact, I think Tolkien is not given enough credit for how much beautiful character development he does include in his stories. Much of it is very subtle (being more than 'black & white') or it happens outside the plotline. What I am saying is that these underground passages offer rather profound and momentous opportunities for the characters to grow. One reason is that in going underground or doing associated things they must overcome fears and face unheard-of challenges, which is symbolized (not necessarily in an obvious way) by going underground itself. In the one example of Bilbo get dragged down to Goblin-Town that this is not voluntary, by just by being with the Dwarves, Bilbo is addressing his fears, and he shows great courage and resolve in getting out, Ring or no. I'm not saying that this underground stuff is some type of Black Box, out of which appears the light at the end of the tunnel, and voilà new character. No, really significant things are seen and experienced down there as part of the story, which only adds to the profundity. Not all of the characters go through a deep transformation. Admittedly, the Mines of Moria have a bigger impact on everyone but Frodo. To return to my examples: 1. I don't see Bilbo's finding the ring as conincidence. The author did it intentional, and then made it quite clear that it be viewed as "Fate," which is only underscored by the underground aspect in that he's a different Bilbo on the other side, not only because of the One Ring, but also because of the encounter with the worst side of Hobbitness in Gollom and the pluck and pity that he learns and shows in that trial. 2. In Thranduîl's Caverns, Bilbo goes and strives for the Dwarves' benefit, and finds tremendous resourcefulness in himself, which allows him to grow in both his and the Dwarves' reckoning. Admittedly they don't change at all. 3. The passage through Erebor is a case of negative character development, not unlike Smeägol's far longer ordeal. Thorin sees in the ruin of Erebor's halls all of the past glory and hurts of his people represented, and it causes deep anger and resentful to brew and well up in his heart, which makes him greedy, wrathful and vengeful in very unfortunate ways. 4. Moria is important for Aragorn's and maybe other's development, but it is really the great challenge for Gandalf. What he'll have to face there is not unknown to his or Aragorn's heart, even if surprisingly to his mind. But that may be an example of Istari having to relearn. That he might have to make the ultimate sacrifice for the Ringbearer, while also ridding Middle-Earth of this great and evil counterpart (what's so important about wings?!) is a great test for him, and from it he is transformed into the type of wizard that he deserved to be all along. 5. The Paths of the Dead is critical for Aragorn's evolution into a true heir to the royal power of Elendil and Isíldur. He draws on Isíldur's legacy and faces demons (in a sense), but as a result openly leads his people of Gondor to victory. 6. Sam's passage (twice) through Shelob's Liar is when we see him really become the Great person that he in fact is. He realizes many things about what he wants, what he values, and what he can do (on his own). __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.