Could Frodo have stopped Gandalf from turning Sam into anything unnatural? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

metropolis_part_one · 01-13-2004, 05:16 PM

In 'The Shadow of the Past', Sam says to Frodo 'Don't let him turn me into anything unnatural!'. If Gandalf had done this, what would he have turned Sam into, and could Frodo have stopped him? Did Gandalf even have the power to do this?

Burzdol · 01-13-2004, 05:50 PM

I should think that Gandalf could! I don't think he would've though, if he would've, he would've scared Frodo into not going(That's just a thought). As for Frodo stopping him, I don't think the hobbit could do a thing.

Legolas · 01-13-2004, 05:53 PM

Sam was merely scared because of his ignorance about elves/Gandalf and what was (somewhat mistakenly) called magic by most, especially those hobbits who did not take kindly to the idea of such outside forces.

doug*platypus · 01-13-2004, 07:24 PM

Great thread! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

Could Frodo have stopped Gandalf

In Sam's opinion, yes. That is, if anyone could have stopped Gandalf, Mister Frodo could have.

But I really doubt that Gandalf could have turned Sam into anything unnatural (which in my opinion means turning him into something that is not Samwise Gamgee!). The nature of all the abilities Gandalf is shown to possess are related to fire, to wisdom or to his heightened mental powers (Osanwë-Kenta and all that).

Transfiguration is more of a Harry Potter kind of a thing. Maybe Sam just finished reading The Chamber of Secrets. Actually if anyone in Middle-Earth could transform him into such, it would be either Radagast (a master of shapes and hues) or Sauron (an all around wraith-making shape-shifting evil menace).

Sparrow · 01-13-2004, 07:32 PM

Frodo could never by force stop Gandalf from doing something. The power difference (and the size difference [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) was too great. Gandalf almost certainly did not have the ability to physically turn Sam into something he wasn't in his lessened form as one of the Istari, but even if he did, does anyone really think for a second that he would?

Carorëiel · 01-13-2004, 09:39 PM

I doubt even Sam thought Frodo could actually do anything to stop Gandalf from working his "magic" if Gandalf were inclined to do so. Rather, I think Sam was asking Frodo to sort of speak on his behalf. You know, "Say, Gandalf, friend wizard, I know this here Samwise Gamgee and he's not a bad egg. No need to be turning him into a frog or whathaveyou. Sure he wasn't up to anything mischievious like."

Lyta_Underhill · 01-13-2004, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Sam says to Frodo 'Don't let him turn me into anything unnatural!'

But, in a sense, doesn't this happen anyway? By his inclusion in the Quest and the effect of the events therein, Samwise is changed out of his reckoning and becomes what his old self might have called "unnatural." I guess it is all in your point of view, really!

Cheers,
Lyta

Gorwingel · 01-13-2004, 10:15 PM

Quote:

But, in a sense, doesn't this happen anyway? By his inclusion in the Quest and the effect of the events therein, Samwise is changed out of his reckoning and becomes what his old self might have called "unnatural."

Interesting thought. Because of the quest he really does turn into a totally different hobbit, and the quest most definitely does change his career path. Whould he really have been mayor if he had not gone on the quest, came back, and helped save the Shire during the scouring? Would he have even married Rosie Cotton? Or would he have just stayed as a simple gardener and servant his entire life?

Is there any chance that Gandalf could have been able to turn things into different things if he would have had the right training? He had the power, but maybe he did not have the knowledge to change something into something different?

Legolas · 01-14-2004, 12:22 AM

Also, I don't see many in Middle-earth who could stop Gandalf from doing something he could do with the twitch of an eye. Least of all Frodo.

01-13-2004, 05:16 PM	#1
metropolis_part_one Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 25	Could Frodo have stopped Gandalf from turning Sam into anything unnatural? In 'The Shadow of the Past', Sam says to Frodo 'Don't let him turn me into anything unnatural!'. If Gandalf had done this, what would he have turned Sam into, and could Frodo have stopped him? Did Gandalf even have the power to do this? __________________ For forty days and forty nights They rode through red blood to the knee And they saw neither sun nor moon But heard the roaring of the sea

01-13-2004, 05:50 PM	#2
Burzdol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Fair City of Rivendell Posts: 274	I should think that Gandalf could! I don't think he would've though, if he would've, he would've scared Frodo into not going(That's just a thought). As for Frodo stopping him, I don't think the hobbit could do a thing. __________________ "Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"

01-13-2004, 05:53 PM	#3
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Sam was merely scared because of his ignorance about elves/Gandalf and what was (somewhat mistakenly) called magic by most, especially those hobbits who did not take kindly to the idea of such outside forces. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

01-13-2004, 07:32 PM	#5
Sparrow Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Paris Herself Posts: 28	Frodo could never by force stop Gandalf from doing something. The power difference (and the size difference [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) was too great. Gandalf almost certainly did not have the ability to physically turn Sam into something he wasn't in his lessened form as one of the Istari, but even if he did, does anyone really think for a second that he would? __________________ Were kisses all the joys in bed, One woman would another wed. -Bill Shakespeare

01-13-2004, 09:39 PM	#6
Carorëiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Tennessee Posts: 54	I doubt even Sam thought Frodo could actually do anything to stop Gandalf from working his "magic" if Gandalf were inclined to do so. Rather, I think Sam was asking Frodo to sort of speak on his behalf. You know, "Say, Gandalf, friend wizard, I know this here Samwise Gamgee and he's not a bad egg. No need to be turning him into a frog or whathaveyou. Sure he wasn't up to anything mischievious like." __________________ "Art is our way of keeping track of what we know and have known, secretly, from the beginning."--John Gardner

01-14-2004, 12:22 AM	#9
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Also, I don't see many in Middle-earth who could stop Gandalf from doing something he could do with the twitch of an eye. Least of all Frodo. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.