are all species immortal in valinor

[mordor136]

I just want to know if you think Frodo, Sam, and Gimli are immortal now that they are in Valinor?

[Eldar14]

They are not immortal, but they do have control over how long they live. They live until they decide they wish to live no longer, (very similar to the lifespan of the first men)

[Orald]

I am not certain if Gimli actually sailed into the West, I seriously doubt it. However Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam went into the West for healing from the ring. After they were restored or healed as much as possible, then they must have eventually died.

[red]

'The Doom of the World,' they said, 'One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'

-Akallabeth, Silmarillion

Frodo and Sam (and perhaps Gimli) did not become immortal.

-réd

(Special thanks to Sharkû for locating the above quote.)

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: red ]

[Zippo]

Yes i agree with red....

[RyAN the Pure Heart]

First of all its late an im tired, so excuse my sleepyness.

BUT isnt it written somewhere in Silm that the few Numenorians(sorry about the butchered spelling) who landed in Valinor were swallowed into the ground where they still live until the final battle. I mean, isnt Valinor refered to as "the undying lands"?

RyAN (time for bed)

[Inziladun]

The Númenóreans who landed on Valinor were entombed under rocks until the End because they unlawfully tried to occupy the Undying Lands, in defiance of the Ban of the Valar. This differs from the situation of the hobbit Ringbearers (and Gimli?) who were presumably allowed by the Valar to live out the rest of their lives on Eressëa.

[Elrian]

Originally posted by Durelen:
<STRONG>I am not certain if Gimli actually sailed into the West, I seriously doubt it. However Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam went into the West for healing from the ring. After they were restored or healed as much as possible, then they must have eventually died.</STRONG>

He sailed into the West with Legolas, it is said that Galadriel may have helped to gain him access.

I was under the impression that Sam did NOT sail into the west with Frodo and Bilbo. Wasnt it said that Sam went on to become the leader of his people? He had a wise and kids.
Gimli, I'm almost sure, also became a leader of his people, i'm not quite sure where though. Oh, nevermind. It was in the Caves in Rohan near Helms Deep. He formed a colony which thrived that in which he was the king.

[Inziladun]

Sam did not go with Bilbo and Frodo.
He did become Mayor of the Shire, serving
many terms (if that's what they were called). However, after the death of his wife Rose he left the Shire, never to return. He was believed by his daughter Elanor to have gone to the Havens and passed over Sea.
Similarly, Gimli is said to have accompanied Legolas over Sea after the death of King Elessar in 1541. Check RoTK Appendix B, The Tale of Years.

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Inziladun ]

[Luineglin]

i belive that all four of them went into the west and that the valinor have control of who lives in there land (the undying land) and that they showed pity and let them all live there until they chose to pass.

[zifnab]

It says in The Return of the King, in Appendix B(Chronoloy of the Westlands), Later events concerning the memebers of the fellowship of the ring:

1482 Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-Bearers.

1541 In this year on March 1st came at last the Passing of King Elessar. It is said that the beds of Meriadoc and Peregrin were set besides the bed of their great king. The legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. And when that ship passed an end was come in Middle-Earth of the Fellowship of the Ring.

And yes Samwise was mayor for 7 terms.

[zifnab]

Well I guess I just repeated what Inziladun said, sorry about that.

[zifnab]

Are all the animals immortal in Valinor also? Huan the chief of the wolfhounds, was born in the Blessed Realm. I believe that Orome gave him to Celegorm and had followed his master into Middle-Earth. I think that Huan would only die after he encountered the mightiest wolf in the world(but he would die). Now my question is if he had lived in Valinor the whole time, would he also be immortal.

[Mhoram]

It seems we have a conflict!

'The Doom of the World,' they said, 'One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'
-Akallabeth, Silmarillion

Thence the Eldar came to the Edain and enriched them with Knowledge and many gifts; but one command had been laid upon the Numenoreans, the 'Ban of the Valar': they were forbidden to tsail west out of sight of their own shores or to attemp to set foot upon the Undying Lands. For though a long span of life had been granted to them, in the beginning thrice that of lesser Men, they must remain mortal, since the Valar were not permitted to take from them the Gift of Men (or the Doom of Men, as it was afterwards called).

-The Return Of The King, Appendix A

That last quote certainly suggests that if Men came to the Undying Lands they would become immortal.

The LOTR and ROTK therein was published long before the Silmarilion and the Akallabeth therein. So you have to decide, which is more canonical?

[Orald]

I don't see any real conflict with the statement, however, the way the appendix in ROTK is worded could throw someone off.

It basically says that the Valar want to keep Valinor nice and immortal and if the Numenoreans come, they will die because the Valar can't give them immortality.

[Ahanarion]

I thought of a reason Gimli could and would wan't to come. Aule the smith could have wanted to see one of the dwarves and a dwarf would obviously want to see Aule.

[Mhoram]

Good catch Durelen, I offer two bits of letters that backup the interpretation:

But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.

I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world.

Letter 154 To Naomi Mitchison
25 September 1954

Foreseeing this in pan, the gods laid a Ban on the Númenóreans from the beginning: they must never sail to Eressëa, nor westward out of sight of their own land. In all other directions they could go as they would. They must not set foot on 'immortal' lands, and so become enamoured of an immortality (within the world), which was against their law, the special doom or gift of Ilúvatar (God), and which their nature could not in fact endure.

Letter 131 To Milton Waldman
probably written late in 1951

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]