Legolas and the Balrog

[Cazoz]

I thought I'd pose the question, seeing as it concerns two of the most popular subjects on this board!

As most of you know, and to great amusement, when the Balrog comes at Khazad-dum, Legolas 'wails':
"Ai! ai!... A Balrog! A Balrog is come!"

This heavily implies he's seen one before, and Gandalf's repsonse only hints that whilst he's heard of them and is familiar with them, he hasn't fought one or seen one.

So, are there any theories as to Legolas' previous contact with Balrogs? Or do you maybe think it is just through lore that he can identify it?

[Selmo]

Hello, Cazoz.
Greetings from another new member.

Balrogs hadn't been seen in Middle Earth since The War of Wrath at the end of the First Age. Legolas wasn't born then.

Although they were rulers of wood-elves (Nandor), Legolas's family were Grey-elves (Sindar) from Doriath. They had met Balrogs, knew they didn't have wings [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] and regarded them as the most fearsome of Morgoth's minions. Legolas would have been brought up on bed-time stories of the heroic deeds of the Old Days, including detailed descriptions of the greatest Elf-bane of them all.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Selmo ]

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Selmo ]

[piosenniel]

In Book of Lost Tales II, there is a Legolas mentioned in 'the Fall of Gondolin' - who helped the eleven band escaping from that destroyed city.

... and Legolas was with them, whose eyes were like cats' for the dark, yet could they see further.

This Legolas would be well acquainted with the terror of Balrogs, though I am not sure we are to mistake him for the elf in LOTR.

[Elenna]

It'd be like watching the evil monster you used to hear tales about come to life. It seems that all elves have some sort of racial memory going, so he would know something of the Balrogs, and of why he should fear them.

This was somewhat dealt with in the movie - when Gandalf identifies the fire as a Balrog, they do a closeup of Legolas, and he looks like he's about to wet his pants.

[the phantom]

Check out the topic Legolas is... what age?. In that discussion, some fellow downers are conjecturing that Legolas had indeed seen a balrog before, because he was in Goldolin during the first age. I'll try to put in a link to that discussion since it's relative to this one, but I'm not sure if I'm doing it right. See if this works. http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=002203

[Legolas]

The Legolas of Gondolin was a Gnome (Noldo), Legolas of Mirkwood was Sindarin.
Elves do reuse names (Rumil of Aman, Rumil of Lorien for example, there are others as well).

- Tar Elenion

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I don't think there is much question that Legolas, like Arwen and her brothers are among the relatively few Elves born in the Third Age, although there may be quite a lot more of that "Age" among the Nandorin East of the Misty Mountains.

He recognized the Balrog for what it was, because as a Sindar he was very well steeped in such lore, unique among the Fellowship. (Balrogs had relatively little involvement with the Edain) It is doubtful there was any other explanation for what they saw and felt, and as an Elf, Legolas's perception is not limited to mere physical clues. He probably felt something of the demonic power on another level.

Gandalf's apparently less quick realization of the Balrog is easily explained by the fact that he does not have direct contact with his Maian memory or senses. The Istari have to relearn most everything. And, what he might have gathered in Rivendell or elsewhere, he would not have bothered with, since the Balrogs were assumed gone, not having been seen throughout the Second Age. In the Books, as opposed to the Movie, the existence of a Balrog at Moria appears to have been completely unrealized by anyone, with the likely exception of Galadriel.

Interestingly, remember that Aragorn had a very strong sense about the doom awaiting them in Moria, and he may have had an implicit inkling, and only did not say the obvious when the Balrog ultimately appeared, as he would have been the only other "Fellow" who had even ever heard of a Balrog.

It seems most likely given the Unfinished Tales' account of Thranduil and his father, that Legolas of Mirkwood (as opposed to the Gnome, which I recall Tolkien not really retaining beyond the "Lost Tales!) was born some time in the Third Age.

Whether it was very early like Elrond's children, or later after the appearance of the Necromancer is pointless. The fact that he'd never actually been to Lorien before would indicate that he hadn't been around for most of the Third Age. But suffice it to say he had been alive for centuries. In the conversations of the three hunters it is indicated that though Legolas is several times older than Aragorn, he has ironically not travelled anywhere near as much.

His seeming both child-like and very old at the same time is exactly typical of a Middle-Earth Elf. Beyond the great heroes and leaders, Legolas is perhaps the only somewhat regular Elf that we ever get to know. And, Elven wisdom is not exactly the comparable to human maturity, and I think we are meant to appreciate Aragorn, Imrahil, the Grey Company and other great Men in the LotR, because of how much they impress Legolas and win his allegiance.

Of course, he is not ordinary and is an elfin prince, and should be classified as a Grey Elf, even if is mother could have been Nandorin, which is what I assume.

Again, the Nandorin of Lorien and Mirkwood seem to be a bit of an exception to the rule of Elves in decline. And their population may have seen something of a modest upswing in the Third Age, rebounding from losses in the strife of the Second Age.

Both Lorien (especially when Galadriel and Celeborn go there after the Balrog appears and Amroth's departure) and the Kingdom of Mirkwood are significant realms not mere refuges.

Also, what we see in the Hobbit would suggest that Thranduil's realm was not exclusively a place for ancient and wise elves, and that many of the elves in Mirkwood are very plausibly "Third Agers" like Legolas, so that people as old as Fangorn would have been quite remarkable for him.

Again, I think the reason he ends up in the Fellowship as opposed to a Glorfindel or Erestor is that he really does represent an Elf of Middle-Earth in those days. The Noldor and the great Sindar are fading, and have no business with the such affairs. Lindon is probably mostly Grey Elves/Falathrim, and Legolas can represent them by lineage, as well as the Elves (actually Eldar) East of the Misty Mountains, where the only really significant societies of Elves in Middle-Earth are still quite alive.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Gandald seemed like he knew what a balrog was to me. The istari dont have to re learn everything, because if they did they'd be only a couple thousand years old in their forms, and many elves would be older. I wouldn't want the random elf to have more wisdom than people who were sent to ME by the Valar, it wouldnt make sense.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Not only did Gandalf know what the Balrog was, they might've been good old chums once upon a time. Balrogs (literally "Demons of Might" [key word "Demon"]) were originally Maiar (who else could've been an immortal "Demon"?).

Legolas knew because of the Gondolin thing (and the fact that any Elf worth his eyesight knew what a Balrog was ["The greatest of the Elven Banes, save the one who sits in the Dark Tower"]). Can anyone say (and I know you're gonna play the "Noldo vs. Sinda" card) reincarnation?

Elves don't "recycle" names. The Glorfindel at Gondolin and the one in Rivendell were one and the same. After Glorfindel was killed in Gondolin, he was sent back by the Valar from the Halls of Mandos. Allegedly, that's what happened to Legolas, too. (There should be a thread about that about a page back, or it might be the one already mentioned in this thread.)

Happy Hunting!

[Tar Elenion]

--------
QUOTE:
Elves don't "recycle" names. The Glorfindel at Gondolin and the one in Rivendell were one and the same. After Glorfindel was killed in Gondolin, he was sent back by the Valar from the Halls of Mandos. Allegedly, that's what happened to Legolas, too.
----------

Elves DO 'recycle' names. There are several instances of it. Rumil was an Elf of Aman, as well as an Elf of Lorien. Two different Elves with the same name. JRRT stated that Telperimpar was a common name among the Teleri (COMMON as in many Elves had that as a name).

_That_ is not what happened to Legolas. Legolas of Gondolin was a Gnome (Noldo) who survived Gondolin and dwelt in Eressea after the fall of Melko.
Legolas of Mirkwood was a Sinda.
Two entirely different people.

[doug*platypus]

In the Books, as opposed to the Movie, the existence of a Balrog at Moria appears to have been completely unrealized by anyone, with the likely exception of Galadriel.

That brings up a good point, MOTW (thanks for your post, by the way, I enjoyed reading it!). Didn't the dwarves know for sure that Durin's Bane was a Balrog? It killed Durin, Náin (I think), and probably quite a few other dwarves.

Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli all should have been aware of its presence in Moria, right? Or were the dwarves always unaware of what exactly was lurking in the depths? If members of the Fellowship did know that a Balrog was at large in Moria, was it not just a little too risky taking the Ringbearer through there? What about the mountain pass that Bilbo and the Dwarves used previously?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I think that legends on Balrog's would've been known to most Elves, sicne they were such a menace and so maybe Legolas and many elves problably would have heard vivid descriptions of them and would have sensed the Balrog's immense power.

On the Dwarves knowing it was a Balrog. I think that few of the Longbeards would have been involved in the war of the Jewels whilst the legends of the Nogrodian and Belegostain refugees may have been soon forgotten and discarded.

[The Saucepan Man]

Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli all should have been aware of its presence in Moria, right?

Why? Even assuming that the Dwarves knew that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, only Gimli would have been aware of the possibility. But he was pretty keen to go through Moria, so that seems unlikely.

The pass that Bilbo and the Dwarves took over the Misty Mountains was, I believe, closed to them. But, had they known that a Balrog was in Moria, you would have thought that the Gap of Rohan would seem the less risky option.

[HCIsland]

I would think the fact that Balin and crew felt they could re-establish a dwarf presence in Moria indicates that Durin's Bane was drifting into legend for the dwarfs. Surely, if Balin suspected what he would have had to confront (forget the orcs and goblins), the idea of setting up a commuity would be laughable.

Even Gandalf seemed hopeful that Balin and company may still be alive, though that hope must have been awful thin.

H.C.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Or maybe Balin wanted to rule a realm of his own ,regardless of the dangers? I think one of the Dwarven rings had something to do with it as well.

In "Fall of Gondolin" (Lost Tales II) he's specifically named "Legolas Greenleaf" and in the notes Christopher Tolkien says something about how this is the first mention of a party of the ring, isn't he?.... but I know details tend to shift from book to book....

[Mithadan]

Special attention should not be attached to the use of the name "Greenleaf". That's merely a translation of the name "Legolas".

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Legolas Greenleaf of Gondolin and Legolas of the Nine Walkers aren't the same person. legolas of Gondolin, was a Gnome, and I belive that the time in which the fall of Gondolin written, only Noldor resided in Gondolin, whereas later on, it was a mixture of Noldor and Sindar. But if the two Legolas's were the same, then surely Tolkien would've mentioned it, like he did with Glorfindel. I think it is either him re-using a character (There was also a blind Elf called Gimli, in that book) or it is simply a re-used name. For example, there is a Galdor in LoTR and one in FoG. I think that no Elf share the same name thing may have been discarded.

[obloquy]

I think it's safe to say that nobody knew Durin's Bane was a Balrog. If anyone knew, Gandalf would have known, too. I think it's very probable that his personal attendance to the Fellowship was singular, and he had previously been content to lend confidence to a horde of orcs from the shadows. Recall how he watched the battle of Azanulbizar from Moria's gates, but never actually went onto the battle field, even when the orc army had been routed by the Dwarves. (See Appendix A part III, Durin's Folk) He may have been alerted by Sauron's presence in the Ring, or by Gandalf's presence; though the latter seems less likely since Gandalf seemed unaware of the Balrog until the 'door scene'. Then again, maybe he did sense the Balrog but kept it to himself, which would explain his words: "'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.'" In any case, the evidence indicates that Durin's Bane had been a mystery to all up until his confrontation with the Fellowship.

[Dunlondion]

Truthfuly I think Legolas had never seen a Balrog unless he was around at the fall of Gondolin however that is impossile bacause Legolas is not that old. I do support the Theory that legolas had herd stories or songs about Balrogs and New how to Identify one.:-)

[Cúdae]

Also take into account the fact that Legolas was the son of Thranduil, who was the King of Mirkwood and probably the head of a pretty much well-to-do family. In other words- Legolas probably had a good education and even if he had not seen a Balrog before, he knew enough fact and had heard enough legend about them to think something along the lines of, "Hey, that's a Balrog! Get me the hell out of here!" Or the Sindarin/Silvan equivalent of that.

Legolas had probably heard of the Fall of Gondolin among other tales involving Balrogs. Undoubtedly his father at any rate had and most likely would have passed that knowledge on to his son.

--Aran/Cúdae

[doug*platypus]

Obloquy brought up convincing evidence that noone knew that there was a Balrog there. I had forgotten that line, thanks! Although in the context it seems that now Gandalf understands what had been contending with him at the door.

Now there's a funny image they should have used in the movie - Gandalf and the Balrog on either side of a door, one trying to pull it open and one trying to hold it closed! Gandalf should have let it go and it would have hit the Balrog in the head! Birds might have appeared around his head and everything!

Saucepan Man, if Gimli had known about the existence of a Balrog in Moria, Gandalf would definitely have known. And Aragorn would have been very likely to know. Legolas Greenleaf would have been less likely to know, unless the fact had been printed as dwarf-bashing in the Mirkwood Mirror or something. Legolas Greenleaf does know that the Dwarves "awakened evil" in Moria.

I'm off to the Movie Forum to complain about how Saruman ruined the surprise.

[Findegil]

If you think Legolas did understand that the beast in front was Balrog out of his education by Thranduil, then I will ask you why didn't Aragorn identify the Balrog as what it is?

Throughout the book Aragorn shows a great knowledge about history. He was educated by high-elves that had eye witnessed the war of jewels. When there was some knowledge about Balrogs in Middle-Earth of the late third age than it was stored in Rivendell. But even after the event, when Aragorn had heard the name Balrog from Legolas and Gandalf's acceptance of it, he was not able to name the demon in his retelling to Galadriel. In Lorien it is again Legolas who named the demon a Balrog.

In my view that shows that Aragorn with all his knowledge of the past had never heard of Balrogs before.

Now let us see how you pictured Legolas: Born in the third age as the son of Thranduil a Sindar out of Doriath.

There had been no mention of any fighting Balrog around Doriath at all and the surviving elves of Belerinad did not fight in the war of wrath. So your Thranduil could only have HEARD of Balrogs - on kind of the many demons of the bad old times that had for all knowledge perished all in the last battle of the north.
Not very likely for me that he gave his son a description that was sufficient to know the demon to be a Balrog at once.

In addition, if your read the account of Thranduil in the unfinished tales, that he was during the complete third age concerned about the enemy, that was daunted but not gone for good, it seems very unlikely that an elf in such an mode will beget an child.

So my point in short: Legolas had eyewitnesses a Balrog before he meet the on in Moria. And if so when he was old enough to have been in the wars of the first age, than why not in the Fall of Gondolin? In the old FoG it was not explicit that all the elves of Gondolin were Noldoli. Later this topic shifted some times. So there is a possibility that he was both, a Sinda and an Elf of Gondolin (isn't the house of the Tree really a good name for a Sindarin house?).

And for your mention of Galdor of Gondolin and Galdor of the Havens: If I read the notes concerning Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell to be the same person, than it say also that Galdor could have been the same person. Galdor survived the FoG, as did Legolas. As a messenger of Cirdan Galdor as a surviving high-elves is likely.

At least you should see that there are some evidence for Legolas being quiet old.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Inderjit Sanghera]

1. Galdor and Legolas wnet to Erresea-signifying that they never died. And the re-incarnated to children, into their descendanst, was I believe discarded.

2. Galdor of Gondolin is a wholly diffrent character then the one in LoTR. He is much wiser and stronger in FoG and I think the most valiant of the Gondothlim save Turgon" may have been held in some honour.

3. Elven re-naming was not rare. For example, one of Haldir's brothers is anmed Rumil and Rumil was also a Valinorean loremaster. And Arakano, the Quenya name of Argon, was also the mother-name of his dad, Fingolfin. And both of Feanor's twin sons were given the same name Ambarussa. So Legolas of LoTR could've just been re-named after Legolas of FoG.

4. Elves were credited with being able, in soem cases, to make images in their stories appear to others, like Finrod did when he first discovered men. So,the stories and images of Balrogs could've been passed down with memory.

5. If Legolas on the Nine Walkers and of Gondolin were indeed the same person, don't you think Tolkien would've mentioned it?

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Findegil]

1. Galdor and Legolas went to Eressea-signifying that they never died. And the re-incarnated to children, into their descendants, was I believe discarded.

That's true, but how does that form an argument here? I never said Legolas and/or Galdor were reborn.

2. Galdor of Gondolin is a wholly different character then the one in LotR. He is much wiser and stronger in FoG and I think the most valiant of the Gondothlim save Turgon" may have been held in some honour.

Again, check the Glorfindel essay! Galdor of the Havens is Galdor of Gondolin not reborn but still lingering in Middle-Earth. Or at least he could be, since JRR Tolkien was not sure if he survived FoG but said that if so he could reasonably be and since we know that Galdor survived we can assume he is. And the dishonour to Galdor is done by your characterisation of his role in LotR not by me. (Could it be that your view is here tainted by JRR Tolkiens own words concerning Galdor of the Havens in that essay, which are hardly justified?)

3. Elven re-naming was not rare. For example, one of Haldir's brothers is named Rumil and Rumil was also a Valinorean loremaster. And Arakano, the Quenya name of Argon, was also the mother-name of his dad, Fingolfin. And both of Feanor's twin sons were given the same name Ambarussa. So Legolas of LotR could've just been re-named after Legolas of FoG.

That's true, but it does only provide a possibility, which I will grant you any way.

4. Elves were credited with being able, in some cases, to make images in their stories appear to others, like Finrod did when he first discovered men. So, the stories and images of Balrogs could've been passed down with memory.

Well, yes and all the songs and stories of Beleriand were sung and told in Rivendell surly more often than in mirkwood. So that does even enhance my argument about Aragorns knowledge, does it?

5. If Legolas on the Nine Walkers and of Gondolin were indeed the same person, don't you think Tolkien would've mentioned it?

Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same person. Did we find that knowledge in the LotR?


To be honest, I never said and don't think that Tolkien meant Legolas of Mirkwood to be the same person as Legolas of Gondolin. But that does not mean that it can't be.

And my mean point is that we do not know Legolas' age and so all the argument about he is to young to have seen a Balrog is void.

Respectfully
Findegil

[obloquy]

2. Galdor of Gondolin is a wholly diffrent character then the one in LoTR. He is much wiser and stronger in FoG and I think the most valiant of the Gondothlim save Turgon" may have been held in some honour.

You can't support this claim. Galdor of the Tree is never reported to have died, and such a noteworthy Elf-lord's defeat could be expected to be documented. There was also a ban on the Noldor returning to Aman. They could be redeemed through their actions, though, so we don't know exactly how the ban might have affected Galdor personally. But if the ban did prevent him from returning to Aman -- or if he thought it did, at any rate -- where would you find him in Middle-earth, do you think? I think the Grey Havens is one of the likeliest places, with ancient, wise Círdan, one of the only Elves left in Middle-earth with such a noble history as Galdor. The fact that he was invited to the Council indicates that he was a lord of some importance, not just an errand runner. He says this at the Council:

What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Círdan at the Havens, or in Lórien.

There also happens to be no statement regarding Galdor's wisdom in the Fall of Gondolin. He is only said to be valiant.

As for Legolas of LotR being the same as Legolas of Gondolin, it's laughable that anyone would pretend that his ability to identify a Balrog is any kind of evidence of his age or lineage. I have never been in the presence of a rhinoceros, but I am quite certain that I could pick one out of a lineup. Think of the role Balrogs played in the stories of ages past -- Legolas calls them 'Elf-banes' -- and even in the 'religious' education of the Elves.

I suppose it's evidence that I prepared my post poorly when I edit it three times. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Ultimatejoe]

There was also a ban on the Noldor returning to Aman.

They were all permitted to return to Tol Eressea (except maybe Galadriel) after the War of Wrath.

[obloquy]

And yet Eressëa is not Aman. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aiwendil]

If you think Legolas did understand that the beast in front was Balrog out of his education by Thranduil, then I will ask you why didn't Aragorn identify the Balrog as what it is?

How do we know he didn't? Merely because he didn't shout about it as Legolas did?

But it is completely possible that, though Aragorn had roughly the same or better education than Legolas, he simply had not been taught precisely what a Balrog looks like. There would have been little need - they were supposed all to have been destroyed.

In my view that shows that Aragorn with all his knowledge of the past had never heard of Balrogs before.

This sounds very unlikely. Never even to have heard of Balrogs would require that he had missed huge portions of the tales of the first age.

Not very likely for me that he gave his son a description that was sufficient to know the demon to be a Balrog at once.

Not likely? Perhaps not. But certainly possible, and far more likely than any alternative.

In addition, if your read the account of Thranduil in the unfinished tales, that he was during the complete third age concerned about the enemy, that was daunted but not gone for good, it seems very unlikely that an elf in such an mode will beget an child.

But Legolas is quite explicitly the son of Thranduil: "There was also a strange Elf clad in green and brown, Legolas, a messenger from his father, Thranduil, the King of the Elves of Northern Mirkwood." (LotR II 2).

There is also no indication in UT that Legolas was alive at the time that Oropher moved east. Nor is there any suggestion anywhere that he was the same Legolas as the one from Gondolin. It seems extremely likely that we would have at least some reference - particularly considering that Tolkien clearly thought the matter of Glorfindel's reincarnation so significant, and devoted at least two essays to it. The only piece of evidence you provide to counter this is that Legolas correctly identified the Balrog. That's simply not enough.

[Findegil]

quote:If you think Legolas did understand that the beast in front was Balrog out of his education by Thranduil, then I will ask you why didn't Aragorn identify the Balrog as what it is?

How do we know he didn't? Merely because he didn't shout about it as Legolas did?
But it is completely possible that, though Aragorn had roughly the same or better education than Legolas, he simply had not been taught precisely what a Balrog looks like. There would have been little need - they were supposed all to have been destroyed.

Because Aragorn even after he had time to think of it and was in saftey in Lórien he did not use the proper name for the Balrog even so he had heard it from Legolas and Gandalf. If this isn't eveidence for Aragorn not knowing about Balrogs, I do not know what you will call evidence.

This sounds very unlikely. Never even to have heard of Balrogs would require that he had missed huge portions of the tales of the first age.

You are right it sounds anlikely, but who else will explain his ingnorence of the Balrog that he shows?

But Legolas is quite explicitly the son of Thranduil: "There was also a strange Elf clad in green and brown, Legolas, a messenger from his father, Thranduil, the King of the Elves of Northern Mirkwood." (LotR II 2).

I never said that he wasn't the son of Thranduil. He clearly was. But when he was born is not said and so no evidence is given that he was in exictence when his father and grandfather moved form Beleriand to the Anduin their is also no evidence for the revers.

It seems extremely likely that we would have at least some reference - particularly considering that Tolkien clearly thought the matter of Glorfindel's reincarnation so significant, and devoted at least two essays to it.

I don't think so. JRR Tolkien din't read FoG when he wrote the essay concerning Glorfindel. Legolas has really a very small role in that story. So it is likely that Tolkien even missed that he had used that name in that story. And only writing this esay's he observed that Galdor of the Havens was also porbably identical to Galdor of Gondolin.

Again, I don't think that Tolkien thought of Legolas of Mirkwood being the same person as Legolas of Gondolin. But we can not really say what solution he might have found had he marked that he reused that name. (We have to think of Glorfindel and Galdor - both had not been in print, so Tolkien was free to change the names in FoG but he didn't. He did come up with a reborn Elf and a possible long lingering on the hither shore of the Lord of peoples of the Tree.) What evidence had we have of these without the essays? For Glorfindel there was a remark in the mansucripts of the council of Elrond that he will tell of his ancestry in Gondolin. But for Galdor we hav nothing.

And now thinks become even more complex: The elf from Mirkwood that brought the message of Gollums escape to the council was at first named Galdor.
So we have:
Legolas of the house of the tree in Gondolin
Galdor lord of the house of Gondolin
Galdor of Mirkwood renamed to Legols
Galdor of the Havens

Tolkien in an after view says that Galdor of Havens could have been the same as Galdor of Gondolin.

I do NOT argue that it is cannon that Legolas of FoG was the same as Legols of LotR. But I can't see enough evidence to state it otherwise as cannon. Both way's are possible even if seconde is more likely. That's all we can say nothing more. If someone wants to belive in the one way or the other we cannot ultimatley deney the possibilty.

Respectfully
Findegil

[burrahobbit]

Legolas' dad is a Sinda. Everybody from Gondolin is not a Sinda. Legolas is not from Gondolin.

[Legolas]

The Legolas at the Fall of Gondolin is only in The Book of Lost Tales 2.

The idea was abandoned, obviously. The Book(s) of Lost Tales contain very early Silmarillion material, most of which was revised many times over the years.

Tolkien just used the name for the elf in The Lord of the Rings.

Legolas of the Third Age was not from Gondolin. Gondolin was a Noldorin establishment. Legolas (via Thranduil) was Sindarin.

If Legolas was even alive in the First Age, he would've lived in Doriath.

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Elfstone]

The fact that he'd never actually been to Lorien before would indicate that he hadn't been around for most of the Third Age. But suffice it to say he had been alive for centuries. In the conversations of the three hunters it is indicated that though Legolas is several times older than Aragorn, he has ironically not travelled anywhere near as much.

I agree that it's apparent that he is not very well traveled, but isn't it strange that he was able to identify crebain out of Dunland from a long distance? Doesn't seem likely that he would be shocked by the trees and Ents of Fangorn yet be familiar with crebain.

Oh well. I guess even Tolkien makes mistakes sometimes. Which may acount for the fact that Legolas was able to identify the Balrog before any of the rest of the Company.

You know, it may just be that no one who ever encountered the Balrog in Khazad-dum ever lived to describe it, leaving it's true nature a bit of a mystery. So Gimli would only know it as a great evil. Aragorn can't be expected to know everything about everything - he does spend a great deal of his life traveling, not studying ancient bad guys. Gandalf knows what they are but has never actually seen one, so even when he sets his eyes on it he may not know exactly what it is. Only an elf would have such a vivid understanding of Balrogs that he might know it from the feel and sight of it. It would certainly be the greatest evil he had ever encountered, it's shadow and flame, it's got a whip (it's got wings [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). What else would he think it was? Any halfway educated elf would know it was a Balrog, even a relatively young one from Greenwood.

[Ultimatejoe]

Aragorn was fostered by Elrond and bears heirlooms dating back to Valinor. I'd be surprised if someone in that situation wouldn't have aquired some curiosity for earlier days.

As for Legalos; there is reams of evidence to show that Legolas isn't from Gondolin.

A) He's not of the Noldo
B) When he talks about the voices of the rocks in the foothills bellow Caradharas; he describes the Elves that they lament (The Noldor) as being a strange folk to him. Surely someone from Gondolin, carved out of rock in the middle of a field of mountains, wouldn't see the Noldor as such.
C) He has never seen the sea before. All the survivors of Gondolin made their ways to the coastlands of Beleriand and established havens. Why then would he say he hasn't seen the sea.
D) There is no evidence that it is the same Legolas as in FoG. Sp recognized the Balrog... This is hardly evidence. Glorfindel and the Balrog fought at the head of a long column of survivors on a twisting mountain pass. There is no guarantee, let alone evidence that Legolas would have had a clear view of the fracas. Considering how large Gondolin was and that there were at most 3 or 4 Balrog's there, it is unlikely he would have seen one.

Unless there is anything in the text that indicates that Legolas a survivor of the first age (and I have seen none) then we cannot as readers imply that he is. The reason we can make such an assertion about Glorfindel in the text is that he is referred to as an Elf-Lord and to past experiences that would indicate a connection to a previous storyline. For everyone's favourite travelling son this isn't so.

[burrahobbit]

Doesn't seem likely that he would be shocked by the trees and Ents of Fangorn yet be familiar with crebain.

Oh well. I guess even Tolkien makes mistakes sometimes. Which may acount for the fact that Legolas was able to identify the Balrog before any of the rest of the Company.

Crebain are crows, there are crows all over the place.

Why wouldn't any elf know what a Balrog is? Wouldn't they tell stories about the most hard core fighters that the enemy had back in the day? Legolas's father and grandfather were around when the Balrogs were fighting the elves. Wouldn't they tell stories about that? Wouldn't Legolas recognize it from these stories?

[obloquy]

I don't see what Legolas' little squeal has to do with anything. It doesn't mean he was the only one to identify the Balrog, it doesn't mean he was the first to identify it, and it doesn't mean he's seen them before.

[Elfstone]

Crebain are crows, there are crows all over the place.

I'm pretty sure there aren't crebain from Dunland all over the place. He doesn't say "hey, look, there's some suspicious looking crows," he says "crebain from Dunland."

Why wouldn't any elf know what a Balrog is?

My point exactly.

[doug*platypus]

isn't it strange that he was able to identify crebain out of Dunland from a long distance?

You're absolutely right. Movie, Schmovie.

I guess even Tolkien makes mistakes sometimes.

Open a new topic, naming two. Difficult, isn't it?

I'm with obloquy and the Rhinoceros line up. Legolas might not be the brightest of the Fellowship, but I think he would be able to guess what the demon of darkness and flame carrying the whip of fire was. And you'd think that the heir to the kingdoms of the Númenóreans, raised at Rivendell, would have a fair idea as well, even if he doesn't specifically say "Ah! I remember reading about one of these, how interesting!"

But even after the event, when Aragorn had heard the name Balrog from Legolas and Gandalf's acceptance of it, he was not able to name the demon in his retelling to Galadriel.

I can't remember exactly what he said - what was the quote? By the way, welcome aboard, Findegil.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

" An evil of the ancient world is seemed, such as I have never seen before" said Aragorn " It was both a shadow and a flame"

He has never SEEN before.It never says he doesn't know what one is, though even if he didn't know what it was he guesses near enough.

Of course, Tolkien makes misatkes, but most often he corrects them.

And, I believe that in the BOOK it is Aragorn, not Legolas who recognises the Crebain.

[Legolas]

It was Aragorn. Aragorn is the only person to say the word. If anyone would know, he would.

Not until they had dwindled into the distance, north and west, and the sky was again clear would Aragorn rise. Then he sprang up and went and wakened Gandalf.
`Regiments of black crows are flying over all the land between the Mountains and the Greyflood,' he said, `and they have passed over Hollin. They are not natives here; they are crebain out of Fangorn and Dunland. I do not know what they are about: possibly there is some trouble away south from which they are fleeing; but I think they are spying out the land. I have also glimpsed many hawks flying high up in the sky. I think we ought to move again this evening. Hollin is no longer wholesome for us: it is being watched.'