FOG orc/k vote

[Tirinvo]

Please specify wether you think it should be orc(the origional used by Tolkien) or ork(the later specified preference of Tolkien). Please do your research and try to be as objectional as possible on you vote.

[HerenIstarion]

ork

The choice is based on the ground the term is later. + as it is given as non english word, substitute for goblin, it's more likely to look evidently stranger with a k in the end.

[Maédhros]

FG-16
Orc/Orcs to Ork/Orks following Tolkien's stated preference and use in his latest writings.

I agree with the Ork change.

[Tirinvo]

I belive that though ork was later JRRT's preference, orc would be the better, because it does not contradict LotR or any other non-Sil books(though in the hobbit, they were called goblins).

Though I believe that if we had to use the word orc in a way that seemed to change the sound, i.e. 'orcish', we could change the 'c'
to 'k', making 'orcish' to 'orkish'. I think that either way could work, though, and I go with the latter choice simply because of the contradiction stated above.

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Tirinvo ]

[Aiwendil]

I'm a little confused - I thought we had decided to hold off on this vote, as it does not really concern the present text. I still think we should put aside this matter until we're done with FoG.

If there is to be a vote, though, I go for Orc, so as not to contradict LotR.

we could change the 'c'
to 'k', making 'orcish' to 'orkish'.

If I recall correctly, this is exactly what Tolkien did in LotR.

+ as it is given as non english word, substitute for goblin, it's more likely to look evidently stranger with a k in the end.

This is actually exactly the opposite of the reason JRRT wanted to make the change. "Orc" is the Old English form, which he at first used unaltered. The reason for the proposed change is that if the word had remained a commonly used one and come into Modern English, the "c" would have changed to "k", as in other O.E. words ending in "-c".

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[HerenIstarion]

*bows

fool of me [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[lindil]

OK as we jumped intp this one a bit earlier than Aiwendil wished, I propose:

1- that we go ahead and use the vote we come up with, but only provisionally. That is until a such time as we vote on changes to effect the entirety of "Translations from the Elvish".

2- that expires on the same day as the Legolas vote [ Oh I just found an old interview w/ TOlkien in a fanzine dated 4/1/71 wherein he emphatically states that as Glorfindel and Legolas both appear in Gondolin and later M-E that he decided to Have Glorifindel be one and the smae but that Legolas' name would change to................................................ .................................................. .................................................. .....Legolust!


[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

there that was my fun for the day

I will vote on this soon, I just want to re-read the quote of JRRT's on his orkish intentions.

I am leaning infavor of orc, unless he specifically said he wanted LotR to remain orc and Silm Ork.

[Aiwendil]

Hmmm . . . your bit of fun has brought a new worry to mind, Lindil. It might go over a bit too well with the female movie fans if we go with "Keen-sight": Legolast is only one letter different.

As for Orc/k, I don't want to stop you from doing the research yourself, but I'll point out for you and for everyone what is, as far as I know, the main piece of evidence in favor of "-k". It's from "Myths Transformed" in Morgoth's Ring, essay IX:

The Elves from their earliest times invented and used a word or words with a base (o)rok to denote anything that caused fear and/or horror. It would originally have been applied to 'phantoms' (spirits assuming visible forms) as well as to any independently existing creatures. Its application (in all Elvish tongues) specifically to the creatures called Orks - so I shall spell it in The Silmarillion — was later.

This says nothing about LotR, but I think that, in the absence of other evidence, it is only natural to conclude that he meant to spell it thus not only in the Silmarillion, but also in LotR; and of course we cannot change LotR. This is the root of claim that we should retain Orc so as not to contradict LotR.

Edit: I should add that a bit further in the essay, he reverts to spelling it with a "c".

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[antoine2]

hi,

I m not agree at all with ork.

Translation from the elvish is a book normaly write by Bilbo Baggins and perhaps tansformed by some humans in the library of Gondor.

For me, it s a wrong way to think, we need to take each time last choice of Tolkien.
It s external vision of all the writes of Tolkien.

The internal view, Biblo's vision of Elder Legend, is, for me better.

And we know, his choice : Orc.
And my choice is the same.

[lindil]

I must say that JRRT leaves me astride the fence as to wether he only meant the Silmarillion or not [ for the Change] why specifically say Silm if he meant everything?

I would like to think that he just meant Silm and wanted a difference to stand between LotR and Silm in the same way that Hobbit uses goblins 99% of the ime and Orc only once or twice. HE clearly could have changed all goblins --> orcs during his revisions but he chose not too.

So this could very well be the same [ and too mind even stranger and less explicable] type of choice of leaving LotR "C" and using Ork in the Silm. The lack of logic in the proposal 'i] if[/i] read that way makes me hesitate.

So in summary:

If by Change in the Silm he meant [ as Aiwendil thinks] LotR also then we can not follow that in our text because we can not effect change in both. Only one and thus create disharmony in between them. the very thing we are ttrying to avoid in general.

On the other hand if meant by " change in Silm' just the Silm then we should. JRRT was a very logical fellow in my mind and I can see no reason to change the one and not the other [whereas I can see a reason for keeping Goblin in a child's story].

So w/ that last thought, on the absence of further evidence I go w/ Orc/

[Eruhen]

I will go with Orc for the same reason as Antoine: whatever Tolkien had said about his intentions to change the Silmarillion, he never got around to it and CRT never changed it when he "edited" it. Also, choosing Orc will not contradict LotR.

Now, to get to the reason that I agree with Antoine. Translations from the Elvish is supposed to be a book written in Rivendell, using Elvish resources. In LotR (which was started by Bilbo and finished by Frodo and Sam), Orc is used. We should go with the word that the author of the book in the Legendarium would have used.

So, my vote is for Orc, with a c.

By the way, the tally is right now:
Ork: 2
Orc: 4

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Eruhen ]

[Tirinvo]

I believe that a deadline was set on this, so if you haven't voted(or wish to change you vote), do it now!

[Eruhen]

Since this is out here, does this mean that the vote is over and the result of this vote is orc? Just wondering so the (very) little bit of work that I am doing on FoG can get changed.

[lindil]

Orc it is.

And shall remain.

Henceforth and forevermore.

Till the next vote.

[HerenIstarion]

Your last sentence sounded exactly as I do usually - "ok, I'm quitting smoking".The statement works until the next cigarette only [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

k, just kiddin [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Orc is it than

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I think 'Ork' is the way to pronounce it. For example, 'Tulcas' was changed to 'Tulkas' and 'Melcor' to 'Melkor', yet things like Celeborn and Celebrimbor remain. Anyone know why elven names remain the same?

[doug*platypus]

Deadline schmeadline. I prefer Orc to Ork, mainly I have to admit because I am used to it (although I could get used to Ork), and also because it is a much better looking word. Probably because Ork has two 'tall' letters in a very short word.

I like the fact that the word was drawn from an old language, since this draws Tolkien's world more in line with our own. I think if anything, Elves should be changed to Eldar. The Professor was concerned about his elves being confused with those of Shakespeare and others, which were more like pixies than anything. History has shown Tolkien's works to be definitive regarding fantasy creatures, however, and I think that his Elves, Dwarves and Orcs have enough of their own culture to break free from any previous moulds. I can see no problem with keeping Orc.

By the way, Lindil, could your post above do with a few less full stops (periods for many of you)? It makes this page much harder to read!

[Aiwendil]

I prefer Orc to Ork, mainly I have to admit because I am used to it (although I could get used to Ork), and also because it is a much better looking word. Probably because Ork has two 'tall' letters in a very short word.

In any case, our decision cannot be based on personal preference. Tolkien probably would have changed it to Ork. But, LotR has Orc, and there is no possibility of changing that. At any rate, we have made a decision, and I don't think that we should lightly go back on it.

[Scott]

Although I see that the vote is currently closed, I think I see a point that was not previously brought up. I agree with the standing decision, if anything just out of habit-being the human I am, but there is another point to be made in "ork"'s favor. Tolkien based Quenya partly on Greek which does not have the letter c, as Quenya does not either. So in order to make the word more cohesive with the last vocabularies and etymologies Tolkien produced, wouldn't it make more sense to use the k over the c?

Like I said, maybe it was already addressed, or it just doesn't matter.

[Aiwendil]

There may be some Greek influence in Quenya, but its orthography was specifically designed to be Latin - hence the "c" in Cirith Ungol, Celeborn, etc.

But orc/ork is not Quenya; it is English.

[Meoshi]

Orc.

I agree with Orc also, though the deadline may of passed.
From reading the trilogy it seems as if Orc was the preffered word. If JRRT wanted to change it then the question is not which do we prefer, but do we stick to the traditional and most frequent spelling Orc, or do we use the spelling which was probably to be used most frequently in any 'future' writings that JRRT wished to produce.

Ork sounds sounds too much like a fantasy creature invented to combat the hero's in a 6 year old's favourite book. (Dont anyone say "well my favourite book was LOTR when I was 6".

As for Legolas and Legolust... I prefer Legless.

[Orofaniel]

Tolkien based Quenya partly on Greek which does not have the letter c, as Quenya does not either. So in order to make the word more cohesive with the last vocabularies and etymologies Tolkien produced, wouldn't it make more sense to use the k over the c?

Did Tolkien base Quenya partly on Greek?
I didn't know, I though that he based on Finnish and their old song/poem Kalevala. The language was also based on Welsh.

I was almost certain that Quenya did have the letter c, but c in the Quenya language is pronounced as k.

Look at these words (they are in Quenya of course):

Ceninyë or Cenin- means "I see"
Pronounced: keninyë and kenin. (If you want me to put in the stress to, let me know)

Culuma-means "Orange", the fruit
Pronunced: Kuluma (as i said before, let me know if you want me to write where the stress should be)

Coimas- means "Lembas"
Pronounced: Koimas (the thing with the stress counts here too)

So I think I'll have to go for Orc, even though the voting is down....


If you think I'm wrong, please let me know!

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Tirinvo]

No, you are quite right, as JRRT said in the RotK appendices that "c is pronounced as k in positions..." Why would he say that if Quenya had no 'c'? One of the Tengwar's letters is Calma, not kalma (though it is pronounced that way), which was used by the Quendi (among the first Elvish 'clans'). Case in point.

[Orofaniel]

Why would he say that if Quenya had no 'c'?

I really don't know...... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] It kind of annoys me, though....That he says that Quenya hasn't c's. Because it does, it's only pronounced like k.

Celeborn.

Seleborn sounds better then Keleborn in my opinion.

Though it was written to be Keleborn if u catch-my-drift, and things like that u are gonna have to stick to..

[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: Valdae ]

[Beserker_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Beserker_Warrior

Ork & Orc . They both have the same pronunciation and they both mean the same creature , but if I had to make a decision then I wold choose Ork because it is what Professer Tolkein had preferred to use and I will hold true to that.

Be Happy, Don't Worry

[Aiwendil]

Greetings, Berserker.

This poll is old. Until such time as we re-open it (if we do), we are going to stick with the original decision to use "Orc".

For information about the project, please see the "Introduction and General Comments" thread.