***Poll of the references of Rúmil and Pengoloð in the Ainulindalë ***

[lindil]

Well since I suggested it I might as well come up to bat first.

In eliminating Aelfwine [which I am extremely loathe to do, but as all have said, Bilbo seems to have definetively replaced him] we are left with many other references in the last Ainulindale to Rumil and Pengolodh. And indeed they are scattered throught the 'Silmarillion', the Narn and various other texts, such as on Lembas, and the Akallabeth as mentioned in HoM-E 12.

So what we do here requires careful thought and perhaps more study than we have given it.

I have a question to ask before I vote.

Do we have instances of JRRT himself expunging Aelfwine/Pengoldh/Rumil from his later 50's and 60's era texts?

If so that would give us, at least a precedent.

And conversely do we have any texts that were revised very late [say after 67?] wherein the three [in varying combinations of course] are retained, even as JRRT continued revision or creation.

I do not have any ready answer to these queries, but I think they [ or more detailed variants of them] would go along way to educating or perhaps eliminating the need for a vote.

As a sample here is what the opening of the Ainulindale could look like without Aelfwine but with Pen. and Rumil.

Ainulindalë

The Music of the Ainur
<font color="FFFF00">This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days. It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa {to Ælfwine} by Pengoloð the Sage. To it are added the further words that Pengoloð spoke at that time concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said thereafter

One may also question keeping Eressea, it could be explained by the unstated hypothesis that Elves in Eressea heard it and transmitted the tale [with Pengolodh Rumil and all] to Numenor or if we want to take Bilbo's collecting of written and living sources to it's logical extreme, Glorfindel could be the source!


I think keeping Eressea, is far less essential than Pengolodh and Rumil.

So anyway I lean towards keeping Rumil and Pengolodh, as I have said, but only if we can reasonably justify it, or conversely, taking them out only if we can find examples of JRRT doing it, or face intractable contradictions [ such as Eressea may prove to be].

Also to aid in minimal chaos, let's keep further non-voting discussion back in the Ainulindale thread in the public forum and keep this thread purely for voting, and any comments that may accompany a vote.

[ February 14, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]