** Fall of Gondolin Section 3 Structure**

[Maédhros]

Tuor in Gondolin

§18 {Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea.} FG-TG-01 But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would.

§ 19 Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin. Of all Tuor's deeds among the Gondolindrim the tales tell not, but 'tis said that many a time would he have stolen thence, growing weary of the concourses of folk, and thinking of empty forest and fell or hearing afar the sea-music of Ulmo, had not his heart been filled with love for a woman of the Gondolindrim, {and she was} [Idril Celebrindal, the] {a} FG-TG-02 daughter of the king.

§ 20 Now Tuor learnt many things in those realms taught by Voronwë whom he loved, and who loved him exceeding greatly in return; or else was he instructed by the skilled men of the city and the wise men of the king. Wherefore he became a man far mightier than aforetime and wisdom was in his counsel; and many things became clear to him that were unclear before, and many things known that are still unknown to mortal Men. There he heard concerning that city of Gondolin and {how unstaying labour through ages of years had not sufficed to} its building and adornment {whereat folk travailed yet}FG-TG-02.5; of the delving of that hidden tunnel he heard, which the folk named the Way of Escape, {and how there had been divided counsels in that matter, yet pity for the enthralled Noldor had prevailed in the end to its making} FG-TG-03; of the guard without ceasing he was told, that was held there in arms and likewise at certain low places in the encircling mountains, and how watchers dwelt ever vigilant on the highest peaks of that range beside builded beacons ready for the fire; for never did that folk cease to look for an onslaught of the Orcs did their stronghold become known.

§ 21 Now however was the guard of the hills maintained rather by custom than necessity, for the Gondolindrim had long ago with unimagined toil levelled and cleared and delved all that plain about Amon Gwared, so that scarce {Gnome} Elf FG-24 or bird or beast or snake could approach but was espied from many leagues off, for among the Gondolindrim were many whose eyes were keener than the very hawks of Manwë Súlimo Lord of Gods and Elves who dwells upon Taniquetil; and for this reason did they call that vale Tumladen or the valley of smoothness. Now this great work was finished to their mind, and folk were the busier about the quarrying of metals and the forging of all manner of swords and axes, spears and bills, and the fashioning of coats of mail, byrnies and hauberks, greaves and vambraces, helms and shields. Now 'twas said to Tuor that already the whole folk of Gondolin shooting with bows without stay day or night might not expend their hoarded arrows in many years, and that yearly their fear of the Orcs grew the less for this.

§ 22 There learnt Tuor of building with stone, of masonry and the hewing of rock and marble; crafts of weaving and spinning, broidure and painting, did he fathom, and cunning in metals. Musics most delicate he there heard; and in these were they who dwelt in the southern city the most deeply skilled, for there played a profusion of murmuring founts and springs. Many of these subtleties Tuor mastered and learned to entwine with his songs to the wonder and heart's joy of all who heard. Strange stories of the Sun and Moon and Stars, of the manner of the Earth and its elements, and of the depths of heaven, were told to him; and the secret characters of the Elves he learnt, and their speeches and old tongues, and heard tell of Ilúvatar, the Lord for Always, who dwelleth beyond the world, of the great music of the Ainur about Ilúvatar's feet in the uttermost deeps of time, whence came the making of the world and the manner of it, and all therein and their governance.

§ 23 Now for his skill and his great mastery over all lore and craft whatsoever, and his great courage of heart and body, did Tuor become a comfort and stay to the king who had no son; and he was beloved by the folk of Gondolin. Upon a time the king caused his most cunning artificers to fashion a suit of armour for Tuor as a great gift, and it was made of {Gnome} Noldor-steel overlaid with silver; but his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield; but he carried an axe rather than a sword, and this in the speech of the Gondolindrim he named Dramborleg, for its buffet stunned and its edge clove all armour.

§ 24 A house was built for him upon the southern walls, for he loved the free airs and liked not the close neighbourhood of other dwellings. There it was his delight often to stand on the battlements at dawn, and folk rejoiced to see the new light catch the wings of his helm -- {and many murmured and would fain have backed him into battle with the Orcs, seeing that the speeches of those two, Tuor and Turgon, before the palace were known to many; but this matter went not further for reverence of Turgon, and because at this time in Tuor's heart the thought of the words of Ulmo seemed to have grown dim and far off.} FG-TG-05

§ 25 Now came days when Tuor had dwelt among the Gondolindrim many years. Long had he known and cherished a love for the king's daughter, and now was his heart full of that love. Great love too had Idril for Tuor, and the strands of her fate were woven with his even from that day when first she gazed upon him {from a high window} as he stood a way-worn suppliant before the palace of the king FG-TG-06. Little cause had Turgon to withstand their love, for he saw in Tuor a kinsman of comfort and great hope. {Thus was first wed a child of Men with a daughter of Elfinesse, nor was Tuor the last} FG-TG-07 . Less bliss have many had than they, and their sorrow in the end was great. Yet great was the mirth of those days when Idril and Tuor were wed before the folk in {Gar Ainion}, the Place of the Ainur, nigh to the king's halls. A day of merriment was that wedding to the city of Gondolin, and of the greatest happiness to Tuor and Idril. Thereafter dwelt they in joy in that house upon the walls that looked out south over Tumladen, and this was good to the hearts of all in the city save Maeglin alone. Now that {Gnome} Elf was come of an ancient house, though now were its numbers less than others, but he himself was nephew to the king by his mother the king's sister Aredhel; {and that tale of Aredhel and Eöl may not here be told} FG-TG-08.

§ 26 Now the sign of Maeglin was a sable Mole, and he was great among quarrymen and a chief of the delvers after ore; and many of these belonged to his house. {Less fair was he than most of this goodly folk, swart and of none too kindly mood, so that he won small love, and whispers there were that he had Orc's blood in his veins, but I know not how this could be true} FG-TG-09.{Now he had bid often with the king for the hand of Idril, yet Turgon finding her very loth had as often said nay, for him seemed Maeglin's suit was caused as much by the desire of standing in high power beside the royal throne as by love of that most fair maid} And {Maeglin's} [his] secret hatred grew ever greater, for he desired above all things to possess {her} Idril, the only heir of the King of Gondolin FG-TG-10 . Fair indeed was she and brave thereto; and the people called her Idril of the Silver Feet in that she went ever barefoot and bareheaded, king's daughter as she was, save only at pomps of the Ainur; and Maeglin gnawed his anger seeing Tuor thrust him out.

§ 27 In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of [the] Eldalië FG-TG-11 KO, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son and he was called Eärendil. {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.} FG-TG-12

§ 28 Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands -- bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Maeglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed.

Maeglin's Treachery

§ 29 [None knew that the region wherein the Hidden Kingdom lay had been at last revealed to Morgoth by the cries of Húrin, when standing in the wilderness beyond the Encircling Mountains and finding no entrance he called on Turgon in despair. Thereafter the thought of Morgoth was bent unceasing on the mountainous land between Anach and the upper waters of Sirion.] FG-M-01
{Behold now many years have gone since Tuor was lost amid the foothills and deserted by those Noldor; yet many years too have gone since to Morgoth's ears came first those strange tidings – faint were they and various in form -- of a Man wandering amid the dales of the waters of Sirion. Now Morgoth was not much afraid of the race of Men in those days of his great power, and for this reason did Ulmo work through one of this kindred for the better deceiving of Morgoth, seeing that no Valar and scarce any of the Eldar or Noldor might stir unmarked of his vigilance. Yet nonetheless foreboding smote that ill heart at the tidings}, and he got together a mighty army of spies: {sons of the} Orcs were there with eyes of yellow and green like cats that could pierce all glooms and see through mist or fog or night; snakes that could go everywhither and search all crannies or the deepest pits or the highest peaks, listen to every whisper that ran in the grass or echoed in the hills; wolves there were and ravening dogs and great weasels full of the thirst of blood whose nostrils could take scent moons old through running water, or whose eyes find among shingle footsteps that had passed a lifetime since; owls came and falcons whose keen glance might descry by day or night the fluttering of small birds in all the woods of the world, and the movement of every mouse or vole or rat that crept or dwelt throughout the Earth. All these he summoned to his Hall of Iron, and they came in multitudes. Thence he sent them over the Earth to seek this Man who had escaped from the Land of Shadows, but yet far more curiously and intently to search out the dwelling of the Noldor {that had escaped his thraldom}[of Turgon] FG-M-02; for these his heart burnt to destroy or to enslave.

§ 30 Now while Tuor dwelt in happiness and in great increase of knowledge and might in Gondolin, these creatures through the years untiring nosed among the stones and rocks, hunted the forests and the heaths, espied the airs and lofty places, tracked all paths about the dales and plains, and neither let nor stayed. From this hunt they brought a wealth of tidings to Morgoth -- indeed {among} many hidden things {that} they dragged to light {they discovered that Way of Escape whereby Tuor and Voronwë entered aforetime. Nor had they done so save by constraining some of the less stout of the Noldor with dire threats of torment to join in that great ransacking; for because of the magic about that gate no folk of Morgoth unaided by the {Gnomes} Noldor could come to it. Yet now they had pried of late far into its tunnels and captured within many of the Noldor creeping there to flee from thraldom. They had scaled too the Encircling Hills} [Mountains] at certain places {and gazed upon the beauty of the city of Gondolin and the strength of Amon Gwared from afar; but into the plain they could not win for} [though because of] the vigilance of its guardians [ and the Eagles] and the difficulty of those mountains [no spy of Morgoth's could yet come within sight of the land behind {the Encircling Mountains} [them to] {gazed} [gaze] upon the beauty of the city of Gondolin and the strength of Amon Gwared] FG-M-03 from afar. Indeed the Gondolindrim were mighty archers, and bows they made of a marvel of power. Therewith might they shoot an arrow into heaven seven times as far as could the best bowman among Men shoot at a mark upon the ground; and they would have suffered no falcon to hover long over their plain or snake to crawl therein; for they liked not creatures of blood, broodlings of Morgoth.

§ 31 Now in those days was Eärendil one year old when these ill tidings came to that city of the spies of Morgoth and how they encompassed the vale of Tumladen around. Then Turgon's heart was saddened, remembering the words of Tuor in past years before the palace doors; and he caused the watch and ward to be thrice strengthened at all points, and engines of war to be devised by his artificers and set upon the hill. Poisonous fires and hot liquids, arrows and great rocks, was he prepared to shoot down on any who would assail those gleaming walls; and then he abode as well content as might be, but Tuor's heart was heavier than the king's, for now the words of Ulmo came ever to his mind, and their purport and gravity he understood more deeply than of old; nor did he find any great comfort in Idril, for her heart boded more darkly even than his own.

§ 32 Know then that Idril had a great power of piercing with her thought the darkness of the hearts of Elves and Men, and the glooms of the future thereto -- further even than is the common power of the kindreds of the Eldalië; therefore she spake thus on a day to Tuor: "Know, my husband, that my heart misgives me for doubt of Maeglin, and I fear that he will bring an ill on this fair realm, though by no means may I see how or when -- yet I dread lest all that he knows of our doings and preparations become in some manner known to the Foe, so that he devise a new means of whelming us, against which we have thought of no defence. Lo! I dreamed on a night that Maeglin builded a furnace, and coming at us unawares flung therein Eärendil our babe, and would after thrust in thee and me; but that for sorrow at the death of our fair child I would not resist."

§ 33 And Tuor answered: "There is reason for thy fear, for neither is my heart good towards Maeglin; yet is he the nephew of the king and thine own cousin, nor is there charge against him, and I see nought to do but to abide and watch."

§ 34 But Idril said: "This is my rede thereto: gather thou in deep secret those delvers and quarrymen who by careful trial are found to hold least love for Maeglin by reason of the pride and arrogance of his dealings among them. From these thou must choose trusty men to keep watch upon Maeglin whenso he fares to the outer hills, yet I counsel thee to set the greater part of those in whose secrecy thou canst confide at a hidden delving, and to devise with their aid -- howsoever cautious and slow that labour be -- a secret way from thy house here beneath the rocks of this hill unto the vale below. Now this way must not lead toward the Way of Escape, for my heart bids me trust it not, but even to that far distant pass, the Cleft of Eagles in the southern mountains; and the further this delving reach thitherward beneath the plain so much the better would I esteem it -- yet let all this labour be kept dark save from a few."

§ 35 Now there are none such delvers of earth or rock as the Noldor (and this Morgoth knows), but in those places is the earth of a great hardness; and Tuor said: "The rocks of the hill of Amon Gwared are as iron, and only with much travail may they be cloven; yet if this be done in secret then must great time and patience be added; but the stone of the floor of the Vale of Tumladen is as forged steel, nor may it be hewn without the knowledge of the Gondolindrim save in moons and years."

§ 36 Idril said then: "Sooth this may be, but such is my rede, and there is yet time to spare." Then Tuor said that he might not see all its purport, "but 'better is any plan than a lack of counsel', and I will do even as thou sayest".

§ 37 [On a time when Eärendil was yet young, and the days of Gondolin were full of joy and peace {and yet Idril's heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit like a cloud}, Maeglin was lost. Now Maeglin loved mining and quarrying after metals above other craft; and he was master and leader of the Elves who worked in the mountains distant from the city, seeking for metals for their smithying of things both of peace and war. But often Maeglin went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied; and so it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin] {Now it so chanced that not long after Maeglin went to the hills for the getting of ore, and} straying in the mountains alone was taken [prisoner] by some of the Orcs prowling there, and they would do him evil and terrible hurt, knowing him to be a man of the Gondolindrim. This was however unknown of Tuor's watchers. [Maeglin was no weakling or craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his soul, and] {But} evil came into the heart of Maeglin, and he said to his captors: "Know then that I am Maeglin son of Eöl who had to wife Aredhel sister of Turgon king of the Gondolindrim." But they said: "What is that to us?" And Maeglin answered: "Much is it to you; for if you slay me, be it speedy or slow, ye will lose great tidings concerning the city of Gondolin that your master would rejoice to hear." Then the Orcs stayed their hands, and said they would give him life if the matters he opened to them seemed to merit that; and Maeglin told them of all the fashion of that plain and city, of its walls and their height and thickness, and the valour of its gates; of the host of men at arms who now obeyed Turgon he spake, and the countless hoard of weapons gathered for their equipment, of the engines of war and the venomous fires.

§ 38 Then the Orcs were wroth, and having heard these matters were yet for slaying him there and then as one who impudently enlarged the power of his miserable folk to the mockery of the great might and puissance of Morgoth; but Maeglin catching at a straw said: "Think ye not that ye would rather pleasure your master if ye bore to his feet so noble a captive, that he might hear my tidings of himself and judge of their verity?"

§ 39 Now this seemed good to the Orcs, and they returned from the mountains about Gondolin to the Hills of Iron and the dark halls of Morgoth; thither they haled Maeglin with them, and now was he in a sore dread. But when he knelt before the black throne of Morgoth in terror of the grimness of the shapes about him, of the wolves that sat beneath that chair and of the adders that twined about its legs, Morgoth bade him speak. Then [he] told {he} {those tidings, and Morgoth hearkening spake very fair to him, that the insolence of his heart in great measure returned} unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin FG-M-06.
[Morgoth {must answer} [answered] laughing, saying: 'Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not so easily blinded!' So Maeglin was obliged to offer more − the ways whereby it might be {found and} assailed and to himself undermine resistance in Gondolin] FG-M-07.

§ 40 [Great indeed was the joy of Morgoth] Now the end of this was that Morgoth aided by the cunning of Maeglin devised a plan for the overthrow of Gondolin. For this Maeglin's reward was to be {a great captaincy among the Orcs} [the lordship of Gondolin, as his vassal, when that city should be taken] -- yet Morgoth purposed not in his heart to fulfil such a promise – {but} [and] {Tuor and Eärendil should Morgoth burn} [Maeglin was to] compass the death of Tuor and Eärendil if he could. If he did, {and} Idril [would] be given to Maeglin's arms -- and such promises was that evil one fain to redeem. [Lust for Idril and hatred of Tuor led Maeglin the easier to this foul treachery.] FG-M-08 Yet as meed of treachery did Morgoth threaten Maeglin with the torment of the Balrogs. Now these were demons with whips of flame and claws of steel by whom he tormented those of the Noldor who durst withstand him in anything -- and the Eldar have called them Valaraukar. But the rede that Maeglin gave to Morgoth was that not all the host of the Orcs nor the Balrogs in their fierceness might by assault or siege hope ever to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win unto the plain without. Therefore he counselled Morgoth to devise out of his sorceries a succour for his warriors in their endeavour. From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he bid him make beasts like snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death.

§ 41 Then [Morgoth sent] Maeglin {was bidden fare home lest at his absence men suspect somewhat} [back to Gondolin, lest men should suspect the betrayal, and so that in} [Maeglin] should aid the assault from within when the hour came]; but Morgoth wove about him the spell of bottomless dread, and he had thereafter neither joy nor quiet in his heart. Nonetheless [though evil was in his heart] he {wore} [abode in the halls of the king with] FG-M-10 a fair mask of good liking and gaiety, so that men said: "Maeglin is softened", and he was held in less disfavour; yet Idril feared him the more. Now Maeglin said: "I have laboured much and am minded to rest, and to join in the dance and the song and the merrymakings of the folk", and he went no more quarrying stone or ore in the hills: yet in sooth he sought herein to drown his fear and disquiet. A dread possessed him that Morgoth was ever at hand, and this came of the spell; and he durst never again wander amid the mines lest he again fall in with the Orcs and be bidden once more to the terrors of the halls of darkness.

§ 42 Now the years fare by, and egged by Idril Tuor keepeth ever at his secret delving{;}. [Tidings Turgon heard of Thorondor concerning the slaying of Dior, Thingol's heir, and thereafter he shut his ear to word of the woes without; and he vowed to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor; and his folk he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills] FG-M-05 but seeing that the leaguer of spies hath grown thinner Turgon dwelleth more at ease and in less fear. Yet these years are filled by Morgoth in the utmost ferment of labour, and all the thrall-folk of the Noldor must dig unceasingly for metals while Morgoth sitteth and deviseth fires and calleth flames and smokes to come from the lower heats, nor doth he suffer any of the Noldor to stray ever a foot from their places of bondage.

[ July 20, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[Maédhros]

Commentaries on the Changes:
{} = Material to be deleted.
[] = Material to be inserted.

General changes such as Melko for Morgoth, has been already done in this text.
Changes are in bold with their reference for ease of formatting.
I used numbers to distinguish the paragraphs from each other for ease of reference.

Specific Changes:

FG-TG-04
{, and it was made of Gnome-steel overlaid with silver; but his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield}
Use previously

I'm not sure what this change means, so I ommited it, in this draft.

FG-M-09

Is already taken into account because it's only the use of General changes such as Melko to Morgoth, Noldoli to Noldor, etc.

FG-M-02

In this one, I have deleted the {sons of the} Orcs part, it seems out of touch with the legendarium.

FG-M-05

/*Q30 Tidings Turgon heard of {Thorndor} [Thorondor] concerning the slaying of Dior, Thingol's heir, and thereafter he shut his ear to word of the woes without; and he vowed to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor; and his folk he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills*/ but seeing that the leaguer of spies hath grown thinner Turgon dwelleth more at ease and in less fear.

I would rather use the Q77 instead of the Quenta. In the Quenta, there is no mention of the Fall of Doriath nor of Nargothrond.

Tidings were brought by Thorondor Lord of Eagles of the fall of Nargothrond, and after of the slaying of Thingol and of Dior his heir, and of the ruin of Doriath; but Turgon shut his ear to word of the woes without, and vowed to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor; and his people he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills.

lindil and Aiwendil Suggestions:

This whole section feels wrong. More specifically, there is not the same sense of vigilance we find in UT as he enters through the gates. There is a boasting that seems out of place for any of the latter elves, and the reference to the gondolindrim guarding the encircling mntns themselves w/ no mention of the eagles except that some had better eyesight!

I agree with Aiwendil that the boasting is not necessarily out of order.
I really liked your suggestion that the eagles are missing and that Aiwendil's suggestion is a good one:
FG-TG-03.5

[And no spy or creature out of Angband could come there because of the vigilance of the eagles, and Morgoth was thwarted in the fulfillment of his designs.]

Not yet approved.
I agree with lindil about the axe comment and to abandon the suit of armor:

FG-TG-04.5
Upon a time the king caused his most cunning artificers to fashion {a suit of armour} [an axe] for Tuor as a great gift, {and it was made of {Gnome} Noldor-steel overlaid with silver; but his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield; but he carried an axe rather than a sword,} and this in the speech of the {Gondolindrim} [Sindar] he named Dramborleg, for its buffet stunned and its edge clove all armour.

Originally posted by lindil
I would like to graft on from the Hobbit, a bit about the Gondolin metalsmith’s ‘glowing blue in the presence of Orcs’ metallurical effects. If JRRT went into such detail about the armor we are now replacing with an axe, the least we can do is detail it as much as our principles allow. Any objections?

I would hesitate to use the glowing feature on the axe of Tuor.

Originally posted by lindil
I like keeping the original armor better and deleting the early reference but keeping the early reference alows for keeping the winged helm, but I suppose we can just eliminate the mentioning on the wings.

Hmmmmm. I rather we keep the original reference and eliminate the mention of the wings or say that Turgon gave to Tuor a gift of an axe and a helm.

FG-TG-05.5
Now came days when Tuor had dwelt {among the {Gondothlim}[in Gondolin] {many years}[for seven years]. Long had he known and cherished a love for the king's daughter,

I agree with you on this lindil. I think we should use the Tale of Years in the War of the Jewels to be more precise. The Q77 has that too.

But so high did Tuor stand in the favour of the King that when he had dwelt there for seven years Turgon did not refuse him even the hand of his daughter

Originally posted by lindil
We also have in the Grey Annal entry that after Turgon decides against heeding the words of Ulmo “Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake”. If it has not been done so, this would be a nice addition to the earlier mention of Turgon ‘bidding’ him to stay.

I agree with this too:

FG-TG-01.5
But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, [for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake]. GA.

[ July 20, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[antoine2]

-- 1 --

Specific Changes:

quote:
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FG-TG-04
{, and it was made of Gnome-steel overlaid with silver; but his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield}
Use previously
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I'm not sure what this change means, so I ommited it, in this draft.

it s used in Transition part, see FG-T-12.


-- 2 --

I agree to deletet FG-M-09.


-- 3 --

In this one, I have deleted the {sons of the} Orcs part, it seems out of touch with the legendarium.

very good !
I agree


-- 4 --

I would rather use the Q77 instead of the Quenta. In the Quenta, there is no mention of the Fall of Doriath nor of Nargothrond.

quote:
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Tidings were brought by Thorondor Lord of Eagles of the fall of Nargothrond, and after of the slaying of Thingol and of Dior his heir, and of the ruin of Doriath; but Turgon shut his ear to word of the woes without, and vowed to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor; and his people he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills.
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I agree, but wait opinion of Lindil and co [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]


-- 5 --

lindil and Aiwendil Suggestions:


quote:
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This whole section feels wrong. More specifically, there is not the same sense of vigilance we find in UT as he enters through the gates. There is a boasting that seems out of place for any of the latter elves, and the reference to the gondolindrim guarding the encircling mntns themselves w/ no mention of the eagles except that some had better eyesight!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I agree with Aiwendil that the boasting is not necessarily out of order.
I really liked your suggestion that the eagles are missing and that Aiwendil's suggestion is a good one:
FG-TG-03.5

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[And no spy or creature out of Angband could come there because of the vigilance of the eagles, and Morgoth was thwarted in the fulfillment of his designs.]
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*********


-- 6 --

Hmmmmm. I rather we keep the original reference and eliminate the mention of the wings or say that Turgon gave to Tuor a gift of an axe and a helm.

You forgot find some armor and some helm (Ulmo's gift) : see transition part.

-- 7 --

FG-TG-05.5
Now came days when Tuor had dwelt {among the {Gondothlim}[in Gondolin] {many years}[for seven years]. Long had he known and cherished a love for the king's daughter,

I agree.

-- 8 --

FG-TG-01.5
But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, [for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake]. GA.

i agree

[ July 21, 2003: Message edited by: antoine2 ]

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by antoine2
it s used in Transition part, see FG-T-12.

Ok, I will have to review that.

The change FG-TG-03.5, would be inserted here:
From paragraph 20:

of the guard without ceasing he was told, that was held there in arms and likewise at certain low places in the encircling mountains, and how watchers dwelt ever vigilant on the highest peaks of that range beside builded beacons ready for the fire; for never did that folk cease to look for an onslaught of the Orcs {did their stronghold become known.} [and no spy or creature out of Angband could come there because of the vigilance of the eagles, and Morgoth was thwarted in the fulfillment of his designs.]

[Aiwendil]

1. FG-TG-04

As Antoine says, this description of the armor was inserted earlier, in the transition section. The reasoning, as far as I can remember, is that in the Lost Tales version, Tuor is still dressed in bear skins and such when he reaches the gate. The armor is then later made for him. It makes sense, then, to remove the description of the armor here and put it in earlier, replacing the description of Tuor's primitive garb.

2. FG-M-09

Just to be completely clear - we're not talking about deleting these changes; it's just that these are general changes that don't seem to warrant a number.

3. FG-M-02

In this one, I have deleted the {sons of the} Orcs part, it seems out of touch with the legendarium.

Hmmm. I don't see it as being out of touch with the legendarium. "Sons of Men" is commonly used simply to mean "Men". I don't see it as other than a sort of lively phrase. But if others agree that it's out of place, I'll consent.

4. FG-M-05

I would rather use the Q77 instead of the Quenta. In the Quenta, there is no mention of the Fall of Doriath nor of Nargothrond.

The Quenta does mention the Ruin of Doriath - "the slaying of Dior, Thingol's heir". So it would only be mention of the fall of Nargothrond that we would gain from the 77.

5. FG-TG-03.5

I agree.

6. FG-TG-04.5

I would hesitate to use the glowing feature on the axe of Tuor.

I agree. Though it's certainly possible that Dramborleg exhibits this feature just as do Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting, we can't be certain.

I agree, however, about the substitution of the axe for the armor as the gift of Turgon.

Hmmmmm. I rather we keep the original reference and eliminate the mention of the wings or say that Turgon gave to Tuor a gift of an axe and a helm.

But if Tuor already had a helm (from Turgon, if indirectly), why would Turgon give him a new one? And if he gave him a new helm, why not a whole new suit of armour? I think that the armour at Vinyamar ought to be thought of as replacing the armor made for Tuor in Gondolin. So I would delete the wings.

7. FG-TG-05.5

I still don't see a pressing need to change 'many' to 'seven', but I don't really object to it either.

8. FG-TG-01.5

This looks like a good idea.

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
FG-TG-04
As Antoine says, this description of the armor was inserted earlier, in the transition section. The reasoning, as far as I can remember, is that in the Lost Tales version, Tuor is still dressed in bear skins and such when he reaches the gate. The armor is then later made for him. It makes sense, then, to remove the description of the armor here and put it in earlier, replacing the description of Tuor's primitive garb.

Now it's clear, and I agree with that.

Originally posted by Aiwendil
FG-M-09

Just to be completely clear - we're not talking about deleting these changes; it's just that these are general changes that don't seem to warrant a number.

You are correct. These changes are just names. Ex: Melko to Morgoth, etc. There were no additions or edition of the text.

FG-M-02
Originally posted by Maédhros
In this one, I have deleted the {sons of the} Orcs part, it seems out of touch with the legendarium.
Originally posted by Aiwendil
Hmmm. I don't see it as being out of touch with the legendarium. "Sons of Men" is commonly used simply to mean "Men". I don't see it as other than a sort of lively phrase. But if others agree that it's out of place, I'll consent.

Does this means that you are ok with it? Are there any references of sons of Orcs in either The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit?

Originally posted by Aiwnedil
FG-M-05
The Quenta does mention the Ruin of Doriath - "the slaying of Dior, Thingol's heir". So it would only be mention of the fall of Nargothrond that we would gain from the 77.

Ok, but are you ok with them then? And in the Quenta, there is no mention of the Ruin of Doriath especifically, only the slaying of Dior, Thingol's heir.

Am I to assume Aiwendil, that you are ok with the whole of Part 3 of Fog then, besides these changes? Are we only waiting for lindil's output then?

[Maédhros]

Revised Version
Tuor in Gondolin

§18 {Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea.} FG-TG-01 But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, [for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake]. FG-TG-01.5

§ 19 Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin. Of all Tuor's deeds among the Gondolindrim the tales tell not, but 'tis said that many a time would he have stolen thence, growing weary of the concourses of folk, and thinking of empty forest and fell or hearing afar the sea-music of Ulmo, had not his heart been filled with love for a woman of the Gondolindrim, {and she was} [Idril Celebrindal, the] {a} FG-TG-02 daughter of the king.

§ 20 Now Tuor learnt many things in those realms taught by Voronwë whom he loved, and who loved him exceeding greatly in return; or else was he instructed by the skilled men of the city and the wise men of the king. Wherefore he became a man far mightier than aforetime and wisdom was in his counsel; and many things became clear to him that were unclear before, and many things known that are still unknown to mortal Men. There he heard concerning that city of Gondolin and {how unstaying labour through ages of years had not sufficed to} its building and adornment {whereat folk travailed yet} FG-TG-02.5; of the delving of that hidden tunnel he heard, which the folk named the Way of Escape, {and how there had been divided counsels in that matter, yet pity for the enthralled Noldor had prevailed in the end to its making} FG-TG-03; of the guard without ceasing he was told, that was held there in arms and likewise at certain low places in the encircling mountains, and how watchers dwelt ever vigilant on the highest peaks of that range beside builded beacons ready for the fire; for never did that folk cease to look for an onslaught of the Orcs {did their stronghold become known.} [and no spy or creature out of Angband could come there because of the vigilance of the eagles, and Morgoth was thwarted in the fulfillment of his designs.] FG-TG-03.5

§ 21 Now however was the guard of the hills maintained rather by custom than necessity, for the Gondolindrim had long ago with unimagined toil levelled and cleared and delved all that plain about Amon Gwared, so that scarce {Gnome} [Elf] FG-24 or bird or beast or snake could approach but was espied from many leagues off, for among the Gondolindrim were many whose eyes were keener than the very hawks of Manwë Súlimo Lord of Gods and Elves who dwells upon Taniquetil; and for this reason did they call that vale Tumladen or the valley of smoothness. Now this great work was finished to their mind, and folk were the busier about the quarrying of metals and the forging of all manner of swords and axes, spears and bills, and the fashioning of coats of mail, byrnies and hauberks, greaves and vambraces, helms and shields. Now 'twas said to Tuor that already the whole folk of Gondolin shooting with bows without stay day or night might not expend their hoarded arrows in many years, and that yearly their fear of the Orcs grew the less for this.

§ 22 There learnt Tuor of building with stone, of masonry and the hewing of rock and marble; crafts of weaving and spinning, broidure and painting, did he fathom, and cunning in metals. Musics most delicate he there heard; and in these were they who dwelt in the southern city the most deeply skilled, for there played a profusion of murmuring founts and springs. Many of these subtleties Tuor mastered and learned to entwine with his songs to the wonder and heart's joy of all who heard. Strange stories of the Sun and Moon and Stars, of the manner of the Earth and its elements, and of the depths of heaven, were told to him; and the secret characters of the Elves he learnt, and their speeches and old tongues, and heard tell of Ilúvatar, the Lord for Always, who dwelleth beyond the world, of the great music of the Ainur about Ilúvatar's feet in the uttermost deeps of time, whence came the making of the world and the manner of it, and all therein and their governance.

§ 23 Now for his skill and his great mastery over all lore and craft whatsoever, and his great courage of heart and body, did Tuor become a comfort and stay to the king who had no son; and he was beloved by the folk of Gondolin. Upon a time the king caused his most cunning artificers to fashion {a suit of armour} [an axe] for Tuor as a great gift, {and it was made of {Gnome} Noldor-steel overlaid with silver; but his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield; but he carried an axe rather than a sword,} and this in the speech of the {Gondolindrim} [Sindar] he named Dramborleg, for its buffet stunned and its edge clove all armour. FG-TG-04.5

§ 24 A house was built for him upon the southern walls, for he loved the free airs and liked not the close neighbourhood of other dwellings. There it was his delight often to stand on the battlements at dawn, and folk rejoiced to see the new light catch the wings of his helm -- {and many murmured and would fain have backed him into battle with the Orcs, seeing that the speeches of those two, Tuor and Turgon, before the palace were known to many; but this matter went not further for reverence of Turgon, and because at this time in Tuor's heart the thought of the words of Ulmo seemed to have grown dim and far off.} FG-TG-05

§ 25 Now came days when Tuor had dwelt {among the {Gondothlim}[in Gondolin] {many years}[for seven years]. Long had he known and cherished a love for the king's daughter, FG-TG-05.5 and now was his heart full of that love. Great love too had Idril for Tuor, and the strands of her fate were woven with his even from that day when first she gazed upon him {from a high window} as he stood a way-worn suppliant before the palace of the king FG-TG-06. Little cause had Turgon to withstand their love, for he saw in Tuor a kinsman of comfort and great hope. {Thus was first wed a child of Men with a daughter of Elfinesse, nor was Tuor the last} FG-TG-07 . Less bliss have many had than they, and their sorrow in the end was great. Yet great was the mirth of those days when Idril and Tuor were wed before the folk in {Gar Ainion,} the Place of the Ainur, nigh to the king's halls. A day of merriment was that wedding to the city of Gondolin, and of the greatest happiness to Tuor and Idril. Thereafter dwelt they in joy in that house upon the walls that looked out south over Tumladen, and this was good to the hearts of all in the city save Maeglin alone. Now that {Gnome} [Elf] was come of an ancient house, though now were its numbers less than others, but he himself was nephew to the king by his mother the king's sister Aredhel; {and that tale of Aredhel and Eöl may not here be told} FG-TG-08.

§ 26 Now the sign of Maeglin was a sable Mole, and he was great among quarrymen and a chief of the delvers after ore; and many of these belonged to his house. {Less fair was he than most of this goodly folk, swart and of none too kindly mood, so that he won small love, and whispers there were that he had Orc's blood in his veins, but I know not how this could be true} FG-TG-09.{Now he had bid often with the king for the hand of Idril, yet Turgon finding her very loth had as often said nay, for him seemed Maeglin's suit was caused as much by the desire of standing in high power beside the royal throne as by love of that most fair maid} And {Maeglin's} [his] secret hatred grew ever greater, for he desired above all things to possess {her} Idril, the only heir of the King of Gondolin FG-TG-10 . Fair indeed was she and brave thereto; and the people called her Idril of the Silver Feet in that she went ever barefoot and bareheaded, king's daughter as she was, save only at pomps of the Ainur; and Maeglin gnawed his anger seeing Tuor thrust him out.

§ 27 In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of [the] Eldalië FG-TG-11 KO, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son and he was called Eärendil. {Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.} FG-TG-12

§ 28 Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands -- bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Maeglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed.

Maeglin's Treachery

§ 29 [None knew that the region wherein the Hidden Kingdom lay had been at last revealed to Morgoth by the cries of Húrin, when standing in the wilderness beyond the Encircling Mountains and finding no entrance he called on Turgon in despair. Thereafter the thought of Morgoth was bent unceasing on the mountainous land between Anach and the upper waters of Sirion.] FG-M-01
{Behold now many years have gone since Tuor was lost amid the foothills and deserted by those Noldor; yet many years too have gone since to Morgoth's ears came first those strange tidings – faint were they and various in form -- of a Man wandering amid the dales of the waters of Sirion. Now Morgoth was not much afraid of the race of Men in those days of his great power, and for this reason did Ulmo work through one of this kindred for the better deceiving of Morgoth, seeing that no Valar and scarce any of the Eldar or Noldor might stir unmarked of his vigilance. Yet nonetheless foreboding smote that ill heart at the tidings}, and he got together a mighty army of spies: {sons of the} Orcs were there with eyes of yellow and green like cats that could pierce all glooms and see through mist or fog or night; snakes that could go everywhither and search all crannies or the deepest pits or the highest peaks, listen to every whisper that ran in the grass or echoed in the hills; wolves there were and ravening dogs and great weasels full of the thirst of blood whose nostrils could take scent moons old through running water, or whose eyes find among shingle footsteps that had passed a lifetime since; owls came and falcons whose keen glance might descry by day or night the fluttering of small birds in all the woods of the world, and the movement of every mouse or vole or rat that crept or dwelt throughout the Earth. All these he summoned to his Hall of Iron, and they came in multitudes. Thence he sent them over the Earth to seek this Man who had escaped from the Land of Shadows, but yet far more curiously and intently to search out the dwelling of the Noldor {that had escaped his thraldom}[of Turgon] FG-M-02; for these his heart burnt to destroy or to enslave.

§ 30 Now while Tuor dwelt in happiness and in great increase of knowledge and might in Gondolin, these creatures through the years untiring nosed among the stones and rocks, hunted the forests and the heaths, espied the airs and lofty places, tracked all paths about the dales and plains, and neither let nor stayed. From this hunt they brought a wealth of tidings to Morgoth -- indeed {among} many hidden things {that} they dragged to light {they discovered that Way of Escape whereby Tuor and Voronwë entered aforetime. Nor had they done so save by constraining some of the less stout of the Noldor with dire threats of torment to join in that great ransacking; for because of the magic about that gate no folk of Morgoth unaided by the {Gnomes} Noldor could come to it. Yet now they had pried of late far into its tunnels and captured within many of the Noldor creeping there to flee from thraldom. They had scaled too the Encircling Hills} [Mountains] at certain places {and gazed upon the beauty of the city of Gondolin and the strength of Amon Gwared from afar; but into the plain they could not win for} [though because of] the vigilance of its guardians [and the Eagles] and the difficulty of those mountains [no spy of Morgoth's could yet come within sight of the land behind {the Encircling Mountains} [them to] {gazed} [gaze] upon the beauty of the city of Gondolin and the strength of Amon Gwared] FG-M-03 from afar. Indeed the Gondolindrim were mighty archers, and bows they made of a marvel of power. Therewith might they shoot an arrow into heaven seven times as far as could the best bowman among Men shoot at a mark upon the ground; and they would have suffered no falcon to hover long over their plain or snake to crawl therein; for they liked not creatures of blood, broodlings of Morgoth.

§ 31 Now in those days was Eärendil one year old when these ill tidings came to that city of the spies of Morgoth and how they encompassed the vale of Tumladen around. Then Turgon's heart was saddened, remembering the words of Tuor in past years before the palace doors; and he caused the watch and ward to be thrice strengthened at all points, and engines of war to be devised by his artificers and set upon the hill. Poisonous fires and hot liquids, arrows and great rocks, was he prepared to shoot down on any who would assail those gleaming walls; and then he abode as well content as might be, but Tuor's heart was heavier than the king's, for now the words of Ulmo came ever to his mind, and their purport and gravity he understood more deeply than of old; nor did he find any great comfort in Idril, for her heart boded more darkly even than his own.

§ 32 Know then that Idril had a great power of piercing with her thought the darkness of the hearts of Elves and Men, and the glooms of the future thereto -- further even than is the common power of the kindreds of the Eldalië; therefore she spake thus on a day to Tuor: "Know, my husband, that my heart misgives me for doubt of Maeglin, and I fear that he will bring an ill on this fair realm, though by no means may I see how or when -- yet I dread lest all that he knows of our doings and preparations become in some manner known to the Foe, so that he devise a new means of whelming us, against which we have thought of no defence. Lo! I dreamed on a night that Maeglin builded a furnace, and coming at us unawares flung therein Eärendil our babe, and would after thrust in thee and me; but that for sorrow at the death of our fair child I would not resist."

§ 33 And Tuor answered: "There is reason for thy fear, for neither is my heart good towards Maeglin; yet is he the nephew of the king and thine own cousin, nor is there charge against him, and I see nought to do but to abide and watch."

§ 34 But Idril said: "This is my rede thereto: gather thou in deep secret those delvers and quarrymen who by careful trial are found to hold least love for Maeglin by reason of the pride and arrogance of his dealings among them. From these thou must choose trusty men to keep watch upon Maeglin whenso he fares to the outer hills, yet I counsel thee to set the greater part of those in whose secrecy thou canst confide at a hidden delving, and to devise with their aid -- howsoever cautious and slow that labour be -- a secret way from thy house here beneath the rocks of this hill unto the vale below. Now this way must not lead toward the Way of Escape, for my heart bids me trust it not, but even to that far distant pass, the Cleft of Eagles in the southern mountains; and the further this delving reach thitherward beneath the plain so much the better would I esteem it -- yet let all this labour be kept dark save from a few."

§ 35 Now there are none such delvers of earth or rock as the Noldor (and this Morgoth knows), but in those places is the earth of a great hardness; and Tuor said: "The rocks of the hill of Amon Gwared are as iron, and only with much travail may they be cloven; yet if this be done in secret then must great time and patience be added; but the stone of the floor of the Vale of Tumladen is as forged steel, nor may it be hewn without the knowledge of the Gondolindrim save in moons and years."

§ 36 Idril said then: "Sooth this may be, but such is my rede, and there is yet time to spare." Then Tuor said that he might not see all its purport, "but 'better is any plan than a lack of counsel', and I will do even as thou sayest".

§ 37 [On a time when Eärendil was yet young, and the days of Gondolin were full of joy and peace {(and yet Idril's heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit like a cloud)}, Maeglin was lost. Now Maeglin loved mining and quarrying after metals above other craft; and he was master and leader of the Elves who worked in the mountains distant from the city, seeking for metals for their smithying of things both of peace and war. But often Maeglin went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied; and so it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin] {Now it so chanced that not long after Maeglin went to the hills for the getting of ore, and} straying in the mountains alone was taken [prisoner] by some of the Orcs prowling there, and they would do him evil and terrible hurt, knowing him to be a man of the Gondolindrim. This was however unknown of Tuor's watchers. [Maeglin was no weakling or craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his soul, and] {But} evil came into the heart of Maeglin, and he said to his captors: "Know then that I am Maeglin son of Eöl who had to wife Aredhel sister of Turgon king of the Gondolindrim." But they said: "What is that to us?" And Maeglin answered: "Much is it to you; for if you slay me, be it speedy or slow, ye will lose great tidings concerning the city of Gondolin that your master would rejoice to hear." Then the Orcs stayed their hands, and said they would give him life if the matters he opened to them seemed to merit that; and Maeglin told them of all the fashion of that plain and city, of its walls and their height and thickness, and the valour of its gates; of the host of men at arms who now obeyed Turgon he spake, and the countless hoard of weapons gathered for their equipment, of the engines of war and the venomous fires.

§ 38 Then the Orcs were wroth, and having heard these matters were yet for slaying him there and then as one who impudently enlarged the power of his miserable folk to the mockery of the great might and puissance of Morgoth; but Maeglin catching at a straw said: "Think ye not that ye would rather pleasure your master if ye bore to his feet so noble a captive, that he might hear my tidings of himself and judge of their verity?"

§ 39 Now this seemed good to the Orcs, and they returned from the mountains about Gondolin to the Hills of Iron and the dark halls of Morgoth; thither they haled Maeglin with them, and now was he in a sore dread. But when he knelt before the black throne of Morgoth in terror of the grimness of the shapes about him, of the wolves that sat beneath that chair and of the adders that twined about its legs, Morgoth bade him speak. Then [he] told {he} {those tidings, and Morgoth hearkening spake very fair to him, that the insolence of his heart in great measure returned} unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin FG-M-06.
[Morgoth {must answer} [answered] laughing, saying: 'Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not so easily blinded!' So Maeglin was obliged to offer more − the ways whereby it might be {found and} assailed and to himself undermine resistance in Gondolin] FG-M-07.

§ 40 [Great indeed was the joy of Morgoth] Now the end of this was that Morgoth aided by the cunning of Maeglin devised a plan for the overthrow of Gondolin. For this Maeglin's reward was to be {a great captaincy among the Orcs} [the lordship of Gondolin, as his vassal, when that city should be taken] -- yet Morgoth purposed not in his heart to fulfil such a promise – {but} [and] {Tuor and Eärendil should Morgoth burn} [Maeglin was to] compass the death of Tuor and Eärendil if he could. If he did, {and} Idril [would] be given to Maeglin's arms -- and such promises was that evil one fain to redeem. [Lust for Idril and hatred of Tuor led Maeglin the easier to this foul treachery.] FG-M-08 Yet as meed of treachery did Morgoth threaten Maeglin with the torment of the Balrogs. Now these were demons with whips of flame and claws of steel by whom he tormented those of the Noldor who durst withstand him in anything -- and the Eldar have called them Valaraukar. But the rede that Maeglin gave to Morgoth was that not all the host of the Orcs nor the Balrogs in their fierceness might by assault or siege hope ever to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win unto the plain without. Therefore he counselled Morgoth to devise out of his sorceries a succour for his warriors in their endeavour. {From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he }[He] bid him {make} [use] {beasts like} snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death. FG-D-01

§ 41 Then [Morgoth sent] Maeglin {was bidden fare home lest at his absence men suspect somewhat} [back to Gondolin, lest men should suspect the betrayal, and so that [Maeglin] should aid the assault from within when the hour came]; but Morgoth wove about him the spell of bottomless dread, and he had thereafter neither joy nor quiet in his heart. Nonetheless [though evil was in his heart] he {wore} [abode in the halls of the king with] FG-M-10 a fair mask of good liking and gaiety, so that men said: "Maeglin is softened", and he was held in less disfavour; yet Idril feared him the more. Now Maeglin said: "I have laboured much and am minded to rest, and to join in the dance and the song and the merrymakings of the folk", and he went no more quarrying stone or ore in the hills: yet in sooth he sought herein to drown his fear and disquiet. A dread possessed him that Morgoth was ever at hand, and this came of the spell; and he durst never again wander amid the mines lest he again fall in with the Orcs and be bidden once more to the terrors of the halls of darkness.

§ 42 Now the years fare by, and egged by Idril Tuor keepeth ever at his secret delving{;}. [Tidings were brought by Thorondor Lord of Eagles of the fall of Nargothrond, and after of the slaying of Thingol and of Dior his heir, and of the ruin of Doriath; but Turgon shut his ear to word of the woes without, and vowed to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor; and his people he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills.] FG-M-05.5 but seeing that the leaguer of spies hath grown thinner Turgon dwelleth more at ease and in less fear. Yet these years are filled by Morgoth in the utmost ferment of labour, and all the thrall-folk of the Noldor must dig unceasingly for metals {while Morgoth sitteth and deviseth fires and calleth flames and smokes to come from the lower heats,} nor doth {he} [Morgoth] FG-D-02 suffer any of the Noldor to stray ever a foot from their places of bondage. Then on a time Morgoth assembled {all his most cunning smiths and sorcerers, and of iron and flame they wrought} a host of monsters such as have only at that time been seen and shall not again be till the Great End. {Some were all of iron so cunningly linked that they might flow like slow rivers of metal or coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them, and these {were filled in their innermost depths with} [carried on their backs]} [T]he grimmest {of the} [were the] Orcs with scimitars and spears; {others} [there were dragons of] {of bronze and copper} {were given} hearts and spirits of blazing fire, and they blasted all that stood before them with the terror of their snorting or trampled whatso escaped the ardour of their breath; yet [there were] others [dragons] {were creatures} of {pure} flame that writhed like ropes of molten metal FG-D-02, and they brought to ruin whatever fabric they came nigh, and iron and stone melted before them and became as water, and {upon} [with] them {rode}[came] the Balrogs {in hundreds} FG-B-01; and these were the most dire of all those monsters which Morgoth devised against Gondolin.

[Maédhros]

Revised Changes:
FG-TG-01.5
But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, [for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake].

FG-TG-02.5
There he heard concerning that city of Gondolin and {how unstaying labour through ages of years had not sufficed to} its building and adornment {whereat folk travailed yet}; of the delving of that hidden tunnel he heard, which the folk named the Way of Escape
I think this keeps the meaning relatively intact while excising the outdated bits.

FG-TG-03.5
of the guard without ceasing he was told, that was held there in arms and likewise at certain low places in the encircling mountains, and how watchers dwelt ever vigilant on the highest peaks of that range beside builded beacons ready for the fire; for never did that folk cease to look for an onslaught of the Orcs {did their stronghold become known.} [and no spy or creature out of Angband could come there because of the vigilance of the eagles, and Morgoth was thwarted in the fulfillment of his designs.]

FG-TG-04.5
Upon a time the king caused his most cunning artificers to fashion {a suit of armour} [an axe] for Tuor as a great gift, {and it was made of {Gnome} Noldor-steel overlaid with silver; but his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield; but he carried an axe rather than a sword,} and this in the speech of the {Gondolindrim} [Sindar] he named Dramborleg, for its buffet stunned and its edge clove all armour.
Note: This change replaces FG-TG-04

FG-TG-05.5
Now came days when Tuor had dwelt {among the {Gondothlim}[in Gondolin] {many years}[for seven years]. Long had he known and cherished a love for the king's daughter,

FG-M-04
{Now it so chanced that not long after Meglin went to the hills for the getting of ore,
…
and he durst never again wander amid the mines lest he again fall in with the Orcs and be bidden once more to the terrors of the halls of darkness.}
Use later
Not sure about this one.


FG-M-05.5
Now the years fare by, and egged by Idril Tuor keepeth ever at his secret delving{;}[.] /*Q77 Tidings were brought by Thorondor Lord of Eagles of the fall of Nargothrond, and after of the slaying of Thingol and of Dior his heir, and of the ruin of Doriath; but Turgon shut his ear to word of the woes without, and vowed to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor; and his people he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills./*
Replacement of the passage of the Quenta to the one in the Published Silmarillion.
Note: This change replaces FG-M-05.

Mechanical Monsters

FG-D-01 Deleting from Maeglin's advice to Morgoth.
{From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he }[He] bid him {make} [use] {beasts like} snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death.
Maeglin now advises Morogth to make snakes and dragons (by which should be understood more of the normal kinds of snakes and dragons) but of great strength, as the best means of bringing Gondolin to the ground.
Maedhros addition: I would replace the making of dragons to using them. Hence {make} [use].

FG-D-02 Devising of the dragons.
Yet these years are filled by Melko in the utmost ferment of labour, and all the thrall-folk of the {Noldoli} [Noldor] must dig unceasingly for metals{ while Melko sitteth and deviseth fires and calleth flames and smokes to come from the lower heats}, nor does {he} [Morgoth] suffer any of the {Noldoli} [Noldor] to stray ever a foot from their places of bondage.
…
Then on a time {Melko} [Morgoth] assembled {all his most cunning {smiths and} sorcerers, and {of iron and flame} they wrought} a host of monsters such as have only at that time been seen and shall not again be till the Great End. {Some {were all of iron so cunningly linked that they} might flow like slow rivers of metal or coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them, and these {were filled in their innermost depths with} [carried on their backs]} [T]he grimmest {of the} [were the] Orcs with scimitars and spears; others {of bronze and copper} {were given} [had] hearts and spirits of blazing fire, and they blasted all that stood before them with the terror of their snorting or trampled whatso escaped the ardour of their breath; yet others were creatures of {pure} flame that writhed like ropes of molten metal, …
The Noldor are now presumably mining metal to arm Morgoth's troops, not to create dragon. The revised acount leaves obscure how these monsters were devised: by breeding or by pods or other method. That they were only seen at that time would mean, in this new context, the time of the end of the First Age, not merely the time of the fall of Gondolin.
I am tempted to keep "of bronze and copper" and modify to "with scales of bronze and copper" here and elsewhere. It would be possible to distinguish iron-scaled and bronze-scaled dragons, but this feels too obviously "clever" to me. The omission of the number of Balrogs is questioned as something that should belong to another thread of change that chances to overlap this thread at this point and should not be considered in this discussion.
It feels a little artificial to me to keep the great mining and work of his thralls, but to entirely change its purpose. Still, it seems only logical that arms would be smithied in preparation for a battle. I think we might consider eliminating the whole passage, but it needs some thought.
Maedhros addition: {assembled all his most cunning {smiths and} sorcerers, and {of iron and flame} they wrought}
{Some {were all of iron so cunningly linked that they} might flow like slow rivers of metal or coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them, and these {were filled in their innermost depths with} [carried on their backs]}
[T]he grimmest {of the} [were the] Orcs with scimitars and spears; others {of bronze and copper} {were given} [had]
To note that there were no mechanical monsters.

Ambiguous Balrogs

FG-B-01 Balrogs on the dragons of flame.
... and {upon} with them {rode} [came] the Balrogs {in hundreds};
Eliminates reference to Balrogs riding dragons. These Balrogs may or may not be capable of flight. Also, if we change the mechanical dragons to real ones, they may no longer serve as transport.
Possibly adding [as captains]

[Aiwendil]

A house was built for him upon the southern walls

In the 'Attack' section, we have switched the escape of the exiles from 'south' to 'north', in accordance with the later idea that Idril's secret way went north instead of south, as in the old story. But here it seems quite probable that the secret way was made in the south because that is where Tuor's house was. So would it not make sense to change 'southern' here to 'northern', and keep the connection between the position of Tuor's house and the secret escape route? This would also fix a problem I recall noticing in the later sections, where, after having escaped from the city, Tuor and the exiles turn and see his house on the near side of the city. Putting his house on the north would allow us to retain this (otherwise it will have to go).

In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of [the] Eldalië

This change was, I think, gotten rid of. There's no reason for the (purely stylistic) insertion of 'the'.

for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son and he was called Eärendil.

Perhaps we should insert here some mention of the mother name "Ardamire" from Shibboleth. I can think of no other place for it, and it would be a shame not to include it at all.

straying in the mountains alone was taken [prisoner] by some of the Orcs prowling there

I think this is good, but I think we must at least consider the implication of the Tale of Years D2: "Maeglin captured by spies of Melkor (Sauron?)"

Of course, the suggestion of Sauron can easily be disregarded as a projected change that cannot be implemented (particularly because of the question mark).

Also we may have to work in this from the Tale of Years C: "511 [>509] . . . Ulmo sends a last warning to Gondolin, which now alone is left; but Turgon will have no alliance with any after the kinslaying of Doriath."

There is no previous indication that Ulmo sent a last warning to Turgon, but as this comes from some of the latest writing on the end of the First Age, it carries a certain weight and cannot be easily disregarded. Of course, we have no idea how Ulmo was to send a last message. But perhaps it would be enough simply to say that he did, and leave the method ambiguous.

Whether we do so or not, this quote brings up another interesting point. Note the words "but Turgon will have no alliance with any after the kin-slaying of Doriath." Christopher Tolkien comments that this could mean "no alliance with any son of Feanor", and I think this interpretation quite likely, considering that the kin-slaying of Doriath is named as a reason. But what has this to do with the message of Ulmo? If Ulmo's counsel is simply to abandon Gondolin and depart down the Sirion, there is no logic in Turgon's refusal: no one is asking him to have an alliance with the sons of Feanor (or with anyone).

The only explanation I can think of for an unwillingness to have an alliance being a reason for Turgon's refusal of Ulmo's counsel is that the old element of Ulmo's advising Turgon to go to war was either retained or revived. And on a close inspection of the sources, this seems not all that unlikely. In the last account of the Fall of Gondolin, that in Q30, it was retained. The only piece of evidence that it had been dropped is the Grey Annals, where, in an extremely compressed account of Tuor's coming to Gondolin, it is said that "There Tuor was brought before King Turgon, and spake the words that Ulmo had set in his mouth, bidding him depart and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down to the sea." Certainly it sounds here as though the advice to go to war was dropped; but when one considers that this was a rather compressed account, that it's the only source indicating such a change, and the implication of the Tale of Years, it begins to seem quite likely that the first component of Ulmo's counsel was not dropped at all.

So perhaps we should consider adding that element back into section 2. Of course, even in the presence of evidence in favor of this, we could still decide that the mere likelihood or possibility of the rejection of this element necessitates its omission from our text.

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
In the 'Attack' section, we have switched the escape of the exiles from 'south' to 'north', in accordance with the later idea that Idril's secret way went north instead of south, as in the old story. But here it seems quite probable that the secret way was made in the south because that is where Tuor's house was. So would it not make sense to change 'southern' here to 'northern', and keep the connection between the position of Tuor's house and the secret escape route? This would also fix a problem I recall noticing in the later sections, where, after having escaped from the city, Tuor and the exiles turn and see his house on the near side of the city. Putting his house on the north would allow us to retain this (otherwise it will have to go).

I would hesitate to move Tuor’s house because, if it were north, it would have been more vulnerable to the initial attack of Gondolin when the hosts of Morgoth came from the North.
The sun has sunk beyond the hills and folk array them for the festival very gladly and eagerly -- glancing in expectation to the East. {Lo!} [But] even when she had gone and all was dark, a new [red] light suddenly began, and a glow there was, but it {was} [mounted] beyond the {northward heights}[hills in the North and not in the East]

Originally posted by Aiwnendil
This change was, I think, gotten rid of. There's no reason for the (purely stylistic) insertion of 'the'.

Ok.

Originally posted by Aiwnendil
Perhaps we should insert here some mention of the mother name "Ardamire" from Shibboleth. I can think of no other place for it, and it would be a shame not to include it at all.

How about this:
FG-TG-11.05
for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son [and she named him Ardamírë, but his father named him] {and he was called} Eärendil [and by this name he was know ever after].

Originally posted by Aiwnendil
I think this is good, but I think we must at least consider the implication of the Tale of Years D2: "Maeglin captured by spies of Melkor (Sauron?)"

What would such a change imply actually? Only the insertion of the name Sauron or some editing of the sort.

Originally posted by Aiwnendil
There is no previous indication that Ulmo sent a last warning to Turgon, but as this comes from some of the latest writing on the end of the First Age, it carries a certain weight and cannot be easily disregarded. Of course, we have no idea how Ulmo was to send a last message. But perhaps it would be enough simply to say that he did, and leave the method ambiguous.
Whether we do so or not, this quote brings up another interesting point. Note the words "but Turgon will have no alliance with any after the kin-slaying of Doriath." Christopher Tolkien comments that this could mean "no alliance with any son of Feanor", and I think this interpretation quite likely, considering that the kin-slaying of Doriath is named as a reason. But what has this to do with the message of Ulmo? If Ulmo's counsel is simply to abandon Gondolin and depart down the Sirion, there is no logic in Turgon's refusal: no one is asking him to have an alliance with the sons of Feanor (or with anyone).
The only explanation I can think of for an unwillingness to have an alliance being a reason for Turgon's refusal of Ulmo's counsel is that the old element of Ulmo's advising Turgon to go to war was either retained or revived. And on a close inspection of the sources, this seems not all that unlikely. In the last account of the Fall of Gondolin, that in Q30, it was retained. The only piece of evidence that it had been dropped is the Grey Annals, where, in an extremely compressed account of Tuor's coming to Gondolin, it is said that "There Tuor was brought before King Turgon, and spake the words that Ulmo had set in his mouth, bidding him depart and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down to the sea." Certainly it sounds here as though the advice to go to war was dropped; but when one considers that this was a rather compressed account, that it's the only source indicating such a change, and the implication of the Tale of Years, it begins to seem quite likely that the first component of Ulmo's counsel was not dropped at all.

Hmmmm. I know what you mean but, that Tale of Year is version C, the later version D, has no indication about this. The interesting point about version C is that would JRRT kept the notion that Turgon would go forward and fight against Morgoth.
From The Shaping of Midle-Earth: The Quenta, 16 II

But now Ulmo bade him make all speed to Gondolin, and gave him guidance for the finding of the hidden door; and a message he gave him to bear from Ulmo, friend of Elves, unto Turgon, bidding him to prepare for war, and battle with Morgoth ere all was lost; and to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Húrin; far without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Fëanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the Gnomes, when every sword should count. A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoth's power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more. But if Turgon would not go forth to this war, then he should abandon Gondolin and lead his people down Sirion, and build thee his fleets and seek back to Valinor and the mercy of the Gods. But in this counsel there was danger more dire than in the other, though so it might not seem; and grievous thereafter would be the fate of the Outer Lands.

This brings up the point of why would Ulmo think that the forces of the Free Elves with Men, would be enough to beat Morgoth when they were utterly defeated in the Nirnaeth. I would rather not go into this.

[Aiwendil]

I would hesitate to move Tuor’s house because, if it were north, it would have been more vulnerable to the initial attack of Gondolin when the hosts of Morgoth came from the North.

I think you're probably right. But I need to think this over a bit more.

FG-TG-11.05
for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son [and she named him Ardamírë, but his father named him] {and he was called} Eärendil [and by this name he was know ever after].

This looks good to me.

What would such a change imply actually? Only the insertion of the name Sauron or some editing of the sort.

I'm not sure. First of all, we must decide whether to give the entry any consideration at all. Even in ToY, the presence of Sauron is dubious. So certainly when put up against all the previous finished texts that make no mention of him, it is something that could just be disregarded. But 'could' is not 'must'. There may be some desirable way to work it in. If we choose to take the note into consideration, then we have two options:

1. Make Maeglin's capture ambiguous - simply say that he was captured, but not by whom. This has the advantage of not imposing a decision on the canon. It has the disadvantage of leaving out information and probably also of stylistic discrepancy.

2. Explicitly state that Sauron captured Maeglin. This has the opposite advantages and disadvantages from above (though it may also suffer a stylistic disadvantage in comparison to the Lost Tales account).

Option 3 is, of course, simply to disregard the note.

I know what you mean but, that Tale of Year is version C, the later version D, has no indication about this.

True, but I think it's very possible that some material that was left out of D was not actually rejected, just omitted. Also, the exclusion of this annal from D might imply the rejection of Ulmo's last warning but need not imply the rejection of Ulmo's counsel to go to war (which was not explicit even in version C).

Overall, though, I think you are probably right that we should still leave out Ulmo's first suggestion. It may have been retained or it may not, so the safest course would be not to include it.

But what do you think about Ulmo's last warning itself? Might this be inserted into the Tale somehow (as merely a repetition of his advice to abandon Gondolin)?

[lindil]

FG-TG-11.05

I will go with it.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I hope to go over everything closely tonioght as I will be out of town due to family illness for a couple of weeks [at least] in a land of no computer access [or very little!]

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
But what do you think about Ulmo's last warning itself? Might this be inserted into the Tale somehow (as merely a repetition of his advice to abandon Gondolin)?

This might be used. This warning reminds me of the warning that Ulmo send to Nargothrond to tell them not to follow Túrin's advice. Again, because it does not appears in version D, I would probably not recommend to use it, but if it were approved, would you go with only mention it or anything more elaborate?

[Maédhros]

Two more proposed changes:

FG-M-02.05
In paragraph 29:
Thence he sent them over the Earth to seek {this Man who had escaped from the Land of Shadows, but yet far more curiously} and intently to search out the dwelling of the Noldor {that had escaped his thraldom}[of Turgon] FG-M-02; for these his heart burnt to destroy or to enslave.
I have dropped the { this Man who had escaped from the Land of Shadows, but yet far more curiously}, because the paragraph should talk about Húrin and not Tuor. Húrin in the Wanderings of Húrin, was let go by Morgoth and not escaped.

FG-D-02.5
At the end of paragraph 42:
and these were the most dire of all those monsters which Morgoth {devised} [used] against Gondolin.
The deletion of devised in favour of used is because of the general change that Morgoth didn’t make monsters especially for the attack on Gondolin.

[lindil]

-- 4 --


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would rather use the Q77 instead of the Quenta. In the Quenta, there is no mention of the Fall of Doriath nor of Nargothrond.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tidings were brought by Thorondor Lord of Eagles of the fall of Nargothrond, and after of the slaying of Thingol and of Dior his heir, and of the ruin of Doriath; but Turgon shut his ear to word of the woes without, and vowed to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor; and his people he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree, but wait opinion of Lindil and co

Fine.

----------------
FG-TG-03.5

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[And no spy or creature out of Angband could come there because of the vigilance of the eagles, and Morgoth was thwarted in the fulfillment of his designs.]
---------------------------------------------


Looks good.


-----------------
OK - blue axe must go, or rather is not feasible for our project scope.
-----------------------

FG-TG-05.5
Now came days when Tuor had dwelt {among the {Gondothlim}[in Gondolin] {many years}[for seven years]. Long had he known and cherished a love for the king's daughter,

looks good.

---------------------

-- 8 --


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FG-TG-01.5
But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, [for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake]. GA.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

fine.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

1. FG-TG-04
As Antoine says, this description of the armor was inserted earlier, in the transition section. The reasoning, as far as I can remember, is that in the Lost Tales version, Tuor is still dressed in bear skins and such when he reaches the gate. The armor is then later made for him. It makes sense, then, to remove the description of the armor here and put it in earlier, replacing the description of Tuor's primitive garb.

I agree with Aiwendil.

-=-=-=-=-=--

3. FG-M-02 sons of the ORcs

It is a weird one, never to recur in the entirety of the Legendarium [afaik]. IF we leave it it will look like we missed it I think, though I conceed Aiwendil's point that theoretically it could be justified, it is still too awkward.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[lindil]

Pt 2

“FG-M-04
{Now it so chanced that not long after Meglin went to the hills for the getting of ore,
…
and he durst never again wander amid the mines lest he again fall in with the Orcs and be bidden once more to the terrors of the halls of darkness.}
Use later
Not sure about this one.”

The sticking point as I see it is that Morgoth sent him back so as not to be discovered by the Gondolindrim. Quite possibly/probably[?] any orcs in the area would have heard and been under orders to leave them/maeglin alone and indeed not to even go close enough to tip the Gondolindrim off.

So on those grounds I say we stick with Q30/77.
FG-M-05.5

Looks good.
Maedhros addition: I would replace the making of dragons to using them. Hence {make} [use].

Linidl: makes sense, though do we not read of Glaurung and such beofre the Dagor Bragollach [?] that Morgoth
Re: the house, I really have not the time to look over this so if it is the last thing left undone while I am away, I will abide the groups decision, unless something compeling appears later.
FG-TG-11.05
for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son [and she named him Ardamírë, but his father named him] {and he was called} Eärendil [and by this name he was know ever after]. Lindil: very good catch Maedhros!
Re: the ‘Ulmo warning’: Again I do not have time to delve into the nuances of the Ulmo warning decision, I will abide with the group, though I would also urge a conservative approach to the general tradition [i.e. lean against using a theory that pops once and is not supported elsewhere].
Re:Two more proposed changes:
FG-M-02.05
In paragraph 29:

FG-D-02.5

Agree with both.
-================
My only real hesitation is that I have not gone over things with as fine a toothed comb as I would like, but at this point, progress is needed and we are still at least one stage away I hope from a final [non-stylistic] draft.

Great work Maedhros.

lindil

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros wrote:

Again, because it does not appears in version D, I would probably not recommend to use it, but if it were approved, would you go with only mention it or anything more elaborate?

I would say go with only mentioning it, since we don't have any idea what form the message took.

But on more careful consideration, I think you're right - it's exclusion from D might have been significant, or it might not have. But it's probably safest not to use it. Still, I'd like to hear others' opinions on this.

I have dropped the { this Man who had escaped from the Land of Shadows, but yet far more curiously}, because the paragraph should talk about Húrin and not Tuor. Húrin in the Wanderings of Húrin, was let go by Morgoth and not escaped.

Looks good.

The deletion of devised in favour of used is because of the general change that Morgoth didn’t make monsters especially for the attack on Gondolin.

This looks good as well.

Lindil wrote (regarding 'sons of Orcs'):

It is a weird one, never to recur in the entirety of the Legendarium [afaik]. IF we leave it it will look like we missed it I think, though I conceed Aiwendil's point that theoretically it could be justified, it is still too awkward.

Hmm. I still don't think it's awkward, but if I'm in the minority, I'll concede the point. But 'sons of Men' is used often enough to simply mean 'Men'. Why not 'sons of Orcs' for 'Orcs'?

[Maédhros]

Aiwendil, am I to assume that Section 3 is almost done pending lindil's final review of it?
I have introduced all of the changes into a final version of Part 3.

[Findegil]

I have re-read this thread since I searched for Aiwendils suggestion to reintroduce the first part of Ulmos message.
I like to make a coment on this: What we do in deleting it is taking a single very compressed account of the message (and the Cristhoper Tolkiens Sil'77 text) over the explicit older texts and the suggestions of at least one junger text. The version pruduced should, in my view, be at least dubious about content of the message.

{Now he had bid often with the king for the hand of Idril, yet Turgon finding her very loth had as often said nay, for him seemed Maeglin's suit was caused as much by the desire of standing in high power beside the royal throne as by love of that most fair maid} And {Maeglin's} [his] secret hatred grew ever greater, for he desired above all things to possess {her} Idril, the only heir of the King of Gondolin FG-TG-10

Way was the first part of this deleted? In "Laws and Coutoms among the Eldar" it is told:

... For the marriage of the Eldar do not take place between 'close kin'. ... By 'close kin' for this purpose was meant members of one 'house', especially sisters and brothers. None of the Eldar married those in direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of thier parents; nor did they wed 'half-sisters' or 'half-brothers'. Since as has been shown only in the rerest events did the Eldar have second spouses, half-sister or half-brother had for them a special meaning: they used these terms when both of the parents of one child were related to both of the parents of another, as when two brothers married two sisters of another family, or a sister and a brother of one haouse amrried a brother and sister of another: things which often occurred. Otherwise 'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.

Since these last half sentence was clearly true for Maeglin and Idril it would not have been unnatural or unlawfull for them to marry. The addition in the Sil'77 was in my view false and we shouldn't make the same failure a second time.

I will later add some thoughts to the treason of Meaglin, but that has to wait a bit.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I like to make a coment on this: What we do in deleting it is taking a single very compressed account of the message (and the Cristhoper Tolkiens Sil'77 text) over the explicit older texts and the suggestions of at least one junger text. The version pruduced should, in my view, be at least dubious about content of the message.

To some extent, I'm inclined to agree with you. Certainly the evidence against the first part of the message is not nearly as great as we all seem to have originally thought. I think it's quite probable that this element was never removed.

But by choosing not to put this element back in, we are not simply rejecting it. I think that our account could be taken as simply omitting mention of the first part of Ulmo's counsel. This seems a safer course than putting in a slightly dubious bit. However, if the general opinion is that our version as it stands does not leave room for that interpretation, then I think a very good case could be made for putting in Ulmo's first piece of advice.

Since these last half sentence was clearly true for Maeglin and Idril it would not have been unnatural or unlawfull for them to marry. The addition in the Sil'77 was in my view false and we shouldn't make the same failure a second time.

In Q30 it is said: "for he desired Idril, and despite his close kinship purposed to possess her . . ." This indicates at the very least that their close kinship would ordinarily be something that would inhibit his desire; this element is lacking in the old Tale. So it seems wise not to use the exact words of the Tale here since they could be thought to conflict with this later element.

But is not the next to the last paragraph of the chapter 'Of Maeglin' in the '77 from the late work on Maeglin by JRRT? There it is said that Maeglin's desire for Idril is an 'evil fruit of the Kinslaying'

[Tar Elenion]

I think the 'far-sundered in kin' is the key part. Arwen and Aragorn were first cousins but their parents were 'far-sundered' in kin (dozens of generations removed), Idril and Maeglin were directly first cousins at no removes whatsoever.

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

But by choosing not to put this element back in, we are not simply rejecting it. I think that our account could be taken as simply omitting mention of the first part of Ulmo's counsel. This seems a safer course than putting in a slightly dubious bit. However, if the general opinion is that our version as it stands does not leave room for that interpretation, then I think a very good case could be made for putting in Ulmo's first piece of advice.

Agreed.

Posted by Aiwendil:

But is not the next to the last paragraph of the chapter 'Of Maeglin' in the '77 from the late work on Maeglin by JRRT? There it is said that Maeglin's desire for Idril is an 'evil fruit of the Kinslaying'

Sorry I missed that one and its source alltogether. In view of this I agree to leave the element out.

But in my view that means that the passage of Laws and customs was entierly rejected. I don't think that Tar-Elenion is right. Laws and customs said that the parents of eitherside that were not related must be 'far sundered in kin' not the one related. It is right that Arwen and Aragorn were first-cousins but they were severaltimes removed. And I don't think that was meant here. In addition their parents on the not related side were not akin at all.
But here is still some need for thought: When we reject that passage in Laws and customs we will deny the possibilty of Celeborn being Teleporno a grandson of Olwe. But that problem does not belong here.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

I have re-read the 'Meaglins trechery' part. It is in it self very well done. But I would like to suggest a further change. Aiwendil had brought up the matter of Sauron as the captor. Since JRR Tolkien was himself not sure about that, it is clearly beter not to adress the matter explicit. But in the version above it is explicity stated that he was captured by orks. In addition I don't see how we can Meaglin let report to the orks all he knows about the defens of Gondolin and than try to tell Morgoth only the place were it is.
I would shorten the episode with the orks and change them to spies and maybe work some of it into the later acount of his talk to Morgoth. I will try a my hand on it:

§ 37 [On a time when Eärendil was yet young, and the days of Gondolin were full of joy and peace {and yet Idril's heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit like a cloud}, Maeglin was lost. Now Maeglin loved mining and quarrying after metals above other craft; and he was master and leader of the Elves who worked in the mountains distant from the city, seeking for metals for their smithying of things both of peace and war. But often Maeglin went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied; and so it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin] {Now it so chanced that not long after Maeglin went to the hills for the getting of ore, and} straying in the mountains alone was taken [prisoner] by some of the {Orcs}[spies of Morgoth] prowling there, and they would do him evil and terrible hurt{, knowing him to be a man of the Gondolindrim}. This was however unknown of Tuor's watchers. [Maeglin was no weakling or craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his soul, and] {But} evil came into the heart of Maeglin, and he said to his captors: "Know then that I am Maeglin son of Eöl who had to wife Aredhel sister of Turgon king of the Gondolindrim." But they said: "What is that to us?" And Maeglin answered: "Much is it to you; for if you slay me, be it speedy or slow, ye will lose great tidings concerning the city of Gondolin that your master would rejoice to hear.{" Then the Orcs stayed their hands, and said they would give him life if the matters he opened to them seemed to merit that; and Maeglin told them of all the fashion of that plain and city, of its walls and their height and thickness, and the valour of its gates; of the host of men at arms who now obeyed Turgon he spake, and the countless hoard of weapons gathered for their equipment, of the engines of war and the venomous fires.}

§ 38 {Then the Orcs were wroth, and having heard these matters were yet for slaying him there and then as one who impudently enlarged the power of his miserable folk to the mockery of the great might and puissance of Morgoth; but Maeglin catching at a straw said: "}Think ye not that ye would rather pleasure your master if ye bore to his feet so noble a captive, that he might hear my tidings of himself and judge of their verity?"

§ 39 Now this seemed good to the {Orcs}[spies], and they returned from the mountains about Gondolin to the Hills of Iron and the dark halls of Morgoth; thither they haled Maeglin with them, and now was he in a sore dread. But when he knelt before the black throne of Morgoth in terror of the grimness of the shapes about him, of the wolves that sat beneath that chair and of the adders that twined about its legs, Morgoth bade him speak. Then [he] told {he} {those tidings, and Morgoth hearkening spake very fair to him, that the insolence of his heart in great measure returned} unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin FG-M-06.
[Morgoth {must answer} [answered] laughing, saying: 'Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not so easily blinded!' So Maeglin was obliged to offer more − the ways whereby it might be found and assailed and to himself undermine resistance in Gondolin.] FG-M-07.

§ 40 [Great indeed was the joy of Morgoth][, and he spake very fair to him, that the insolence of his heart in great measure returned. And Maeglin told {them }of all the fashion of that plain and city, of its walls and their height and thickness, and the valour of its gates; of the host of men at arms who now obeyed Turgon he spake, and the countless hoard of weapons gathered for their equipment, of the engines of war and the venomous fires.] Now the end of this was that Morgoth aided by the cunning of Maeglin devised a plan for the overthrow of Gondolin. For this Maeglin's reward was to be {a great captaincy among the Orcs} [the lordship of Gondolin, as his vassal, when that city should be taken] -- yet Morgoth purposed not in his heart to fulfil such a promise – {but} [and] {Tuor and Eärendil should Morgoth burn} [Maeglin was to] compass the death of Tuor and Eärendil if he could. If he did, {and} Idril [would] be given to Maeglin's arms -- and such promises was that evil one fain to redeem. [Lust for Idril and hatred of Tuor led Maeglin the easier to this foul treachery.] FG-M-08 Yet as meed of treachery did Morgoth threaten Maeglin with the torment of the Balrogs. Now these were demons with whips of flame and claws of steel by whom he tormented those of the Noldor who durst withstand him in anything -- and the Eldar have called them Valaraukar. But the rede that Maeglin gave to Morgoth was that not all the host of the Orcs nor the Balrogs in their fierceness might by assault or siege hope ever to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win unto the plain without. Therefore he counselled Morgoth to devise out of his sorceries a succour for his warriors in their endeavour. From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he bid him make beasts like snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death.

I think that would work better, even if it is more risky. But I don't think it is too risky since I didn't change the story-line even when I moved part of the text. I removed the knowledge of the spies that Maeglin was a elf of Gondolin. Since I think any spy would bring any Gondolindrim to Morgoth for inspection and investigation. So in my version it was the knowledge of his ancestry that rescued Maeglin with the spies.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Interesting points.

Posted by Fingdegil

I would shorten the episode with the orks and change them to spies and maybe work some of it into the later acount of his talk to Morgoth.

Why can't orcs be spies? I think that if you were under torture, there would be things that you will say in order to save yourself. I don't see it wrong that Maeglin had to say them something for they to believe that he was who he said he is. And also, by not stating explicitly that they were spies, we leave open the possibility that they could have been. (I'm begining to sound like Aiwendil here)

Moreover, I don't think that it is a necessity for the Orcs to be spies, it is a posiblity that they were, but not a certainity.

[ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[Finwe]

Even if the Orcs weren't spies, Maeglin couldn't have been just feeding them information so that he could escape torture for the time being. He could have been playing with their desire for rewards and power, however slight it is, by telling them that there could have been something good in store for them if they brought Morgoth such a "noble captive."

[Findegil]

The change of orks to spies was done in view of the note in Húrins Wanderings. But that is of course a minor point. I can as well go with orks, since they can naturaly be spies of Morgoth. (I only changed it to be less explicit on the nature of the captors.)

The motiv in the Tale, is that Meglin had to tell nothing really knew to the orks since they did know the place of the city. What he then told them was the truth about the strength of the defence of the city which did only anger the orks. So Meglin played his last card and that was the nobility of the prisoner and the worth there of for Melko.

As the story stands now, the orcs didn't know exactly were Gondolin was. They captured a Noldor of unknown derivation in the region were they thought that Gondolin must be. The first information to investigat on by torture would be his home. As soon as it was discovered that Maeglin was a Gondolindrim, he was certainly a very percious prisoner. And I can't imaging that even the silliest Orks would think of killing him for impudentness.
Imagin a trup of orks that comes back to Morgoth and reports that they had captured an elf that said he was the sisterson of Turgon, but that they had killed him because in his impudentness he had overestimated the strength of Gondolin. The face of Morgoth wouldn't be smiling at that, that's for sure! I would think, that what ever Maeglin would have told them, they would have brought him for further questening to Angband, once they did know were he came from. That in mind Maeglins chance to shorten his turture was again his nobility, he could make them feel that thier torment had brought him to treachery but that he was noble enough to nagotiate only with Morgoth himself. For the orks no further need for investigation is to be imagined: they had to bring the prisoner to Angband anyway and they had made him already willing to tell his news directly to Morgoth. Of what worth would it be to get that information to tell it by themself to Morgoth? They would expect him to question Maeglin himself what ever they would tell him.
For that reason I removed the part of the nagotiating with the orks. To use the passage of Maeglin telling of the defence of Gondolin later in Maeglins speak to Morgoth is not really necessary. But I found, that it fitted very well and brought some more details to the enhanced treachery to which Maeglin was forced by Morgoths knowledge of the place of Gondolin.

In short, what I think most necessary is the removment I did in §37 and §38. The rest of my changes were more or less expermintal and are not relly improtend.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Let me see this in a separate light:
In our version, because of The Wanderings of Húrin, Morgoth knows the region of the location of Gondolin, and we can assume that his orcs had to had something of that knowledge too.
Maeglin first tells the Orcs that he is the son of Aredhel to try and make them not kill him. It could be of course possible that the orcs were not convinced of that, I mean, people are willing to do anything to not die.
So that Maeglin had to give them something new about Gondolin.
When the orcs heard that, they were upset and wanted to kill him, until Maeglin mentions that perhaps Morgoth should hear what he has to say about his words.

Options as I see it:
1. Keep it as it is, because that is what JRRT wrote and it is valid enough. After all, these are orcs were are talking about.

2. Remove the part that the Orcs were angry at Maeglin because and wanted to kill him. It seems to me that given the information given by Maeglin, they would at least bring him to Angband.

3. Follow Findegil suggestion and remove both the extra info given by Maeglin and the anger of the Orcs.

I personally would chose 2 because, at least the info given by Maeglin would serve to prove at least that his claim as the son of Aredhel has some value.
Then again, keeping the story as it is, is fine by me too.

lindil, Aiwendil, thoughts on this.

[Aiwendil]

2. Remove the part that the Orcs were angry at Maeglin because and wanted to kill him. It seems to me that given the information given by Maeglin, they would at least bring him to Angband.

I must admit that, not having thought about this section for a while, it is hard to remember all the nuances of the textual situation. But I don't quite see what the point of this would be. What is the motivation for this particular change? It doesn't seem to me that the change regarding the information Maeglin has necessitates a change in the behavior of the Orcs. I don't see what's wrong with this: Maeglin is captured, the Orcs threaten him, he tells them he is Aredhel's son, they ask what this is to them, he gives them information. Having gotten the information, they threaten to slay him, but he points out that Morgoth would be pleased if they brought him in as a prisoner.

It doesn't seem particularly strange that the Orcs would threaten to kill him the second time, for they have already gotten information out of him. Perhaps I'm just missing something or forgetting the thrust of the debate.

To me, a bigger problem seems to be the mention of Sauron in ToY. Yes, it is a vague and dubious note, but it makes me wish there were some way of achieving ambiguity (my favorite word) here so as to allow the possibility that Sauron captured him. But alas, I don't see any way to do that.

The only other minor point that I can see in part 3 that has not yet been finalized is FG-M02: the "sons of Orcs" bit. Perhaps someone could explain to me precisely why "sons of Orcs" doesn't work as an embellishment for "Orcs" while "sons of Men" does work as an embellishment for "Men". It's not that I think this point is particularly important; I simply don't see any good reason to make the change.

[Maédhros]

Posted by Aiwnendil
To me, a bigger problem seems to be the mention of Sauron in ToY. Yes, it is a vague and dubious note, but it makes me wish there were some way of achieving ambiguity (my favorite word) here so as to allow the possibility that Sauron captured him. But alas, I don't see any way to do that.

As I have said before, I have no problem keeping the text as it is. Orcs are orcs and that behaviour can certainly be explained. However, as you have pointed out, the introduction of Sauron would to me, require heavy enmendation, because Sauron would have guessed correctly about the information that Maeglin gave them and certainly would have tried a more subtle approach than mere Orcs. I see no way of introducing him without great alteration.

Posted by Aiwendil
The only other minor point that I can see in part 3 that has not yet been finalized is FG-M-02: the "sons of Orcs" bit. Perhaps someone could explain to me precisely why "sons of Orcs" doesn't work as an embellishment for "Orcs" while "sons of Men" does work as an embellishment for "Men". It's not that I think this point is particularly important; I simply don't see any good reason to make the change.

While this is a minor point, and may fall on the category of a change of style, here is my reason for the change:
1. If I'm not mistaken, the phrase sons of Orcs is not found in the later writtings of the Sil, while that of Sons of Men is.
2. Reproduction. I think that we all here are ok about Sons of Men, because Men acknowledge that they have offspring and they refer to it as their sons. But do Orcs have that same thing?
3. It seems odd to me.

[Findegil]

The problem is not in the scene of Maeglins capture itself. Tha scene is in itself nice and fit well with the behavior of Orcs as we know them. But only a few lines later we insert the following:

§ 39 ... Morgoth bade him speak. Then [he] told {he} {those tidings, and Morgoth hearkening spake very fair to him, that the insolence of his heart in great measure returned} unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin FG-M-06.
[Morgoth {must answer} [answered] laughing, saying: 'Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not so easily blinded!' So Maeglin was obliged to offer more ? the ways whereby it might be found and assailed and to himself undermine resistance in Gondolin.] FG-M-07.

So at first Maeglin is threatend by the Orcs and told them all about the defens of Gondolin and then he is brought to Morgoth and tries to do say no more than the place were the city can be found.
For me telling the Orcs "of all the fashion of that plain and city, of its walls and their height and thickness, and the valour of its gates; of the host of men at arms who now obeyed Turgon he spake, and the countless hoard of weapons gathered for their equipment, of the engines of war and the venomous fires" is pratically the same as to tell Morgoth "the ways whereby it might be found and assailed". Of course Maeglin did in the end more, he offered "to undermine resistenace". But we underestimate the value of the information Maeglin gives to Morgoth, especialy when we let the next part stand were it is told that "Morgoth aided by the cunning of Maeglin devised a plan for the overthrow of Gondolin".

Respectfully
Findegil

For that reason I want to delet the passage were Maeglin tells the Orcs all about Gondolin.

[Aiwendil]

I see. But I don't think that there's necessarily a contradiction here, for two reasons. First (and most importantly) we don't know what precise words of Maeglin lie behind "revealing unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin and the ways whereby it might be found and assailed". Notice that, even here in the Q30 account, he not only gives the location but also information concerning how to assail the city. Why could this information not include the things he had already told the Orcs? Second, I don't think it's necessary that the information he first tries to give to Morgoth be exactly the information he gave to the Orcs; a person can certainly behave a bit irrationally when brought before Morgoth as a prisoner.

If that is deemed an insufficient argument by the majority, then I would vote for this minimal change: alter it so that instead of telling the Orcs all about the fashion of the city and so forth, he merely tells them its location. But I see no reason in any event to remove the anger of the Orcs or to have Maeglin tell them nothing.

[Aiwendil]

I wonder whether the silence on this thread is due to exasperation, forgetfulness, or (I hope!) agreement with my last argument.

I bring it up because if there is agreement, then - except for the very minor matter of "sons of the Orcs" - section 3 would appear to be done.

I admit I still have minor reservations relating to the mention of Sauron in ToY. But I suppose an ambiguous version is not possible, unless we sacrifice a great deal of text and continuity.

[Findegil]

It is not really agrement, but I can see your reason and accept the choice if it is made.

But is it made already? Meadhros has vote for only deleting the part were the Orcs would kill Maeglin. You, Aiwendil, have voted for no change at all. And I still think that my suggestion would be best. But if you and Meadhros are against any changes it is oky for me.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Sorry for the late respons. But I had a time of hard work with 16 hours a day plus a bit of the night.

[Aiwendil]

I must apologize, for I've just noticed that in my previous argument on this matter, I was making a rather foolish mistake.

I see now that the problem is with the fact that Q30's "revealing unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin and the ways whereby it might be found and assailed" is made the second reply and the first is merely its location. This appears to contradict the story that Maeglin had already told the Orcs more than just its location. (I had thought the alleged problem was between the LT and Q30 versions, but in fact it's between LT and "Wanderings").

Sorry for my obtuseness on this matter. I see the problem in full (I hope I do, at any rate). I see the following possible solutions:

1. Leave the text as it is. The rationale here would be that Maeglin is simply being irrational. I don't think this is too hard to believe - when brought into the presence of Morgoth, the magnitude of his treachery might strike him with greater force, and he might also hold back in fear.

2. Alter the encounter with the Orcs so that Maeglin tells them only the location of Gondolin, but the rest of the episode proceeds as in LT. This seems a very reasonable course, for it involves only a very minor alteration to the plot. However, the textual alterations needed might prove a bit heavier than we would like.

3. Remove the whole business of the Orcs threatening Maeglin; as soon as they capture him, they bring him to Angband. This has the disadvantage that we lose a bit of detail and also that we are making a more significant alteration to the text. Whether the textual edit here is more or less contrived than that in 2 I'm not sure.

4. Remove the whole passage with the Orcs, replacing it with a sentence of summary from ToY or some other source. This has the virtue of avoiding the problem altogether. It also has the virtue that it does not involve a potential contradiction with ToY (with "spies" or with "Sauron"). It has the disadvantage that it involves the removal of a lot of text.

Those are the possibilities I see. I am not at all sure myself which I favor. I suppose I lean toward 2.

But I think it would be best to carry this discussion out as far as it will go in the hope of reaching some kind of agreement rather than reducing it to a mere vote.

[Findegil]

Ah, now someon had understood my concerns. I will also fote for your version 2. I will try to work out that version starting with what I had done at first.

§ 37 [On a time when Eärendil was yet young, and the days of Gondolin were full of joy and peace {and yet Idril's heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit like a cloud}, Maeglin was lost. Now Maeglin loved mining and quarrying after metals above other craft; and he was master and leader of the Elves who worked in the mountains distant from the city, seeking for metals for their smithying of things both of peace and war. But often Maeglin went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied; and so it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin] {Now it so chanced that not long after Maeglin went to the hills for the getting of ore, and} straying in the mountains alone was taken [prisoner] by some of the Orcs prowling there, and they would do him evil and terrible hurt{, knowing him to be a man of the Gondolindrim}. This was however unknown of Tuor's watchers. [Maeglin was no weakling or craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his soul, and] {But} evil came into the heart of Maeglin, and he said to his captors: "Know then that I am Maeglin son of Eöl who had to wife Aredhel sister of Turgon king of the Gondolindrim." But they said: "What is that to us?" And Maeglin answered: "Much is it to you; for if you slay me, be it speedy or slow, ye will lose great tidings concerning the city of Gondolin that your master would rejoice to hear.{" Then the Orcs stayed their hands, and said they would give him life if the matters he opened to them seemed to merit that; and Maeglin told them of all the fashion of that plain and city, of its walls and their height and thickness, and the valour of its gates; of the host of men at arms who now obeyed Turgon he spake, and the countless hoard of weapons gathered for their equipment, of the engines of war and the venomous fires.}

§ 38 {Then the Orcs were wroth, and having heard these matters were yet for slaying him there and then as one who impudently enlarged the power of his miserable folk to the mockery of the great might and puissance of Morgoth; but Maeglin catching at a straw said: "}Think ye not that ye would rather pleasure your master if ye bore to his feet so noble a captive, that he might hear my tidings of himself and judge of their verity?"

§ 39 Now this seemed good to the Orcs, and they returned from the mountains about Gondolin to the Hills of Iron and the dark halls of Morgoth; thither they haled Maeglin with them, and now was he in a sore dread. But when he knelt before the black throne of Morgoth in terror of the grimness of the shapes about him, of the wolves that sat beneath that chair and of the adders that twined about its legs, Morgoth bade him speak. Then [he] told {he} {those tidings, and Morgoth hearkening spake very fair to him, that the insolence of his heart in great measure returned} unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin FG-M-06.
[Morgoth {must answer} [answered] laughing, saying: 'Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not so easily blinded!' So Maeglin was obliged to offer more − the ways whereby it might be found and assailed and to himself undermine resistance in Gondolin.] FG-M-07.

§ 40 [Great indeed was the joy of Morgoth.] Now the end of this was that Morgoth aided by the cunning of Maeglin devised a plan for the overthrow of Gondolin. For this Maeglin's reward was to be {a great captaincy among the Orcs} [the lordship of Gondolin, as his vassal, when that city should be taken] -- yet Morgoth purposed not in his heart to fulfil such a promise – {but} [and] {Tuor and Eärendil should Morgoth burn} [Maeglin was to] compass the death of Tuor and Eärendil if he could. If he did, {and} Idril [would] be given to Maeglin's arms -- and such promises was that evil one fain to redeem. [Lust for Idril and hatred of Tuor led Maeglin the easier to this foul treachery.] FG-M-08 Yet as meed of treachery did Morgoth threaten Maeglin with the torment of the Balrogs. Now these were demons with whips of flame and claws of steel by whom he tormented those of the Noldor who durst withstand him in anything -- and the Eldar have called them Valaraukar. But the rede that Maeglin gave to Morgoth was that not all the host of the Orcs nor the Balrogs in their fierceness might by assault or siege hope ever to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win unto the plain without. Therefore he counselled Morgoth to devise out of his sorceries a succour for his warriors in their endeavour. From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he bid him make beasts like snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Actually, that's not quite what I meant in my proposal 2.

Your revision is good though, and is a valid alternative. Call it 2.5, for it is somewhere between my 2 and 3.

What I meant was that we retain the anger of the Orcs, etc., and merely alter the specific information Maeglin gives them: he no longer tells them "of all the fashion of that plain and city . . .", only its location. But the subsequent anger of the Orcs would then depend on Maeglin's exact words being interpretable as a boast. Hence my reservation that "textual alterations needed might prove a bit heavier than we would like".

If we are going to lose all of that little altercation, as you suggest, then I'm very tempted to go with my proposal 4, leaving room for any ToY implications.

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwnedil
I see now that the problem is with the fact that Q30's "revealing unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin and the ways whereby it might be found and assailed" is made the second reply and the first is merely its location. This appears to contradict the story that Maeglin had already told the Orcs more than just its location. (I had thought the alleged problem was between the LT and Q30 versions, but in fact it's between LT and "Wanderings").

Ok.

Posted by Aiwendil
1. Leave the text as it is. The rationale here would be that Maeglin is simply being irrational. I don't think this is too hard to believe - when brought into the presence of Morgoth, the magnitude of his treachery might strike him with greater force, and he might also hold back in fear.

The more that I read the text, the more I'm convinced that the interaction between the Orcs and Maeglin can be explained by the fact that Maeglin is dealing with Orcs. I don't see the great contradiction in there. Maeglin told the Orcs the location and how could Gondolin be assaulted.
What if the Orcs were mad at Maeglin for telling them that, what if they thought that he was deceiving them and only his appeal to bring him to Morgoth was sufficient for him not being killed.
Then when Maeglin spoke with Morgoth, he of course would know the status of Maeglin.
I may be blind, but can someone point out what is so wrong as to merit a change in this part.

[Aiwendil]

The trouble is that in the story as sketched in connection with the "Wanderings of Hurin" material, Maeglin first tries to get away with just telling Morgoth Gondolin's location. But of course Hurin has already rashly revealed this to him, so Maeglin is obliged to offer more.

The fact that Maeglin at first tries to give Morgoth just the location seems to contradict the much earlier story that he had already told much more to the Orcs.

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwnedil
The fact that Maeglin at first tries to give Morgoth just the location seems to contradict the much earlier story that he had already told much more to the Orcs.

Yes, but it could be said that Maeglin regained his composure with Morgoth and told him only about the location, but because Morgoth knew about Gondolin from Húrin, he was obliged to tell what he said to the Orcs.
It is not entirely impossible for the above scenario to occur but I have to admit that the best suggestion IMO is to just delete the part about Maeglin telling of hidden things to the Orcs, and to tell them directly to Morgoth.

[Aiwendil]

Yes, but it could be said that Maeglin regained his composure with Morgoth and told him only about the location, but because Morgoth knew about Gondolin from Húrin, he was obliged to tell what he said to the Orcs.

But if Maeglin had already given the information to the Orcs, how could he possibly believe that he could hide it from Morgoth? Surely the Orcs would tell him.

In light of this and the possibility of removing the bulk of the episode, I am really very much tempted to delete the whole thing and replace it with a suitably ambiguous ToY-style statement that agrees fully with the ToY, allowing even for the possibility that Sauron was the captor.