Are Elves Shallow?

[Morwen Tindomerel]

They do seem to be unduly swayed by appearances. Both Morgoth and later Sauron gain the trust of the Noldor with 'a fair appearance' and poor Gwindor loses status with his people because he's lost his strength and good looks.

On the other hand Luthien is beloved for her beauty, (nobody seems to have had a clue about her courage and spirit until she took up with Beren) ditto for her descendant Arwen, (who seems to have had neither).

There seems no question but that physical beauty contributes mightily to an Elf's status and reputation among his/her people. Not to mention the Eldar's evaluation of other races. Dwarves are scorned for their 'stunted' bodies and unElvish appearance. And Men are esteemed according to how well they meet Elven aesthetics. Thus the tall golden haired Hadorians and dark fine featured Beorians are held in greater respect than the short, thick bodied Haladin or hairy, swarthy Easterlings.

I don't say that looks are *all* that matters to Elves but they surely do count for quite a lot! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

I think it's that, in Tolkien's world, outer beauty was a reflection of inner beauty or potency.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

While there certainly is a connection between inner and outer beauty in ME it is far from absolute, Morgoth and Sauron being cases in point. As was Aragorn who looked foul but felt fair, as Frodo put it. Thus demonstrating that Hobbits can be more perceptive than Elves.

[Legolas]

Sauron and Morgoth had great inner potency though, whether it was used for good or bad.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

In most places that does seem to be the case. I guess for Elves, outer beauty reflects inner beauty... That does seem quite unfair [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. Maybe for them it is true, and they probably thought the same for other races.
Just a guess. I wouldn't call Elves 'shallow', but they do seem to be obsessed with pretty stuff (like jewels [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I wouldn't say that elves are obsessed with beuty but that elves find the inner beauty in all natural things like jewels, trees, animals, ... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Yes, but like I said, they connected inner beauty very closely with outer beauty. At least that's the impression I got... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

That's the impression I get too. The possibility of dissonance between outer and inner nature seems alien to them.

And they do tend to cling to possessions and familiar surroundings, a trait that gets most of the people of Gondolin killed, (and let's not even talk about Feanor and sons' jewelry obsession). The concept of cutting your losses also seems alien to the Elves.

[Lalaith]

Wasn't Finduilas in love with Gwindor before he lost his looks in Melkor's mines?
Pretty shoddy to turn your back on your boyfriend for such a reason, I agree.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

In all fairness to Finduilas I don't think she ever stopped loving Gwindor, (she was the one who recognized him after all). Her infatuation for Turin just hit her out of the blue and she didn't know how to cope with it. One can, after all, love two men at the same time.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I thought Finduilas' "rejection" of Gwindor had less to do with his new appearance, than the appearance of his new companion [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

I think in Tolkien appearance and personality seem to be inextricably connected. For example, Morwen, you pointed out that Dwarves were mocked for their stunted, non-elven appearance. The race of Dwarves had a vastly different collective personality type than the race of elves. The houses of Hador and Beor also seemed to have more elvish tendencies and more interaction with the elves than the Haladin. It seems that in ME most of the people who were pleasing to the eye by standards of Elvish aesthetics were people simiilar in behavior and tastes to the elves. If you look elvish you are elflike, perhaps.

I'm sure that Sauron and Morgoth when clad in their fair appearances didn't go around using the black speech and proclaiming their dark intentions. They disguised more than their bodies.

Elves are certainly lovers of beauty, but I wouldn't say that they are lovers of beauty to the exclusion of all else.

Sophia

[Lanniae of the Axe]

Haha. Are Elves shallow? Yes. Cynical me. All the points you made, Morwen, hit home for me! Could be I just am not generally fond of Elves. I think Bravery and Honor and good stuff like that (hell, almost *anything* else) is above Beauty. In all fairness, I think since the Elves were the first ones in M.E., they do get some rights about comparing others to their stature. But still. You can't take it with you! Well, I guess in middle earth you can... [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[Lush]

Elves aren't shallow, Tolkien just isn't Victor Hugo when it comes to approaching physical appearance. And as for the "fair appearance" that Morgoth and Sauron put on to win the Noldor over, I think the issue here isn't only in good looks, but also in the ability to charm and deceive.

Elves are not shallow! They are not only lovers of beauty but they are also lovers of nature. This is probably the reason that they are as they are. They are not all into themselves and they look out for the safety of others. They also have the power to enchant as well as to make things beautiful. For those who think that elves are shallow, the reality of it is that elves are the best! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Diamond18]

Elves just reflect Tolkien's taste for writing about beautiful things. This doesn't make them shallow, because if he intended for them to be that way, he would have portrayed them as such, rather than noble, wise creatures. So, I think the question you might be asking is: Was Tolkien shallow for creating such a race of beautiful, beauty loving people?

The answer to that would be No. I think Tolkien had a good handle on inner beauty being relfected in outer beauty. This is a literary device: The hero in the white hat. The hero isn't good because he wears the white hat, rather, he wears the white hat because he is good.

I do not recall Elves having a distaste for Dwarves based solely on their looks—they weren't all that hot for the Dwarves behavior and mindset. So I don't see that as being a factor. All in all, you cannot blame a man for putting supernatural beauty into a fantasy world, any more than you can for any other supernatural element, and so it doesn't make sense to blame the creation for being written that way.

[Gorwingel]

I never really thought elves as shallow, I just thought of them as very wonderful, noble, beings. In the books you never really hear about them being obsessed about their hair or clothing (which in modern terms is what I think of being shallow, even though Tolkien would never talk about a thing like that) I guess they are just lucky.

Quick question...
Where do they talk about Gwindor and his lost of status with his people? Is that in the Sil?

[Kuruharan]

Yes, and in the UT too.

[EDIT] The section dealing with Gwindor in the UT is in the Appendix of the Narn.

[ June 10, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[The Saucepan Man]

Not many of the "good" human characters are unattractive either, certainly not the heroic ones. I don't exactly imagine Hurin, Beren or Turin as being "mingers". And Aragorn feeling "foul" was more, I think, to do with being weatherbeaten from his travels. I bet he scrubbed up nicely. At least I am sure Arwen (and Eowyn) thought so [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] .

Indeed, in "The field of Cormallen", he is described thus:

And then they knew him, changed as he was, so high and glad of face, kingly, lord of Men, dark-haired with eyes of grey.

Also, the likes of Eowyn and Morwen are, I think, described in terms of great beauty.

Again, the outer beauty reflects the inner beauty. Those who are not so "beautiful" on the inside are described in less glowing terms. So, Wormtongue is "a wizened figure of a man, with a pale wise face and heavy-lidded eyes". And then, in the Prancing Pony, we have the squint eyed southerner (although I believe that he may have had Orcish blood in him) and Bill Ferny, described as a "swarthy Bree-lander" with a "knowing and half-mocking expression".

So, although Elves are undoubtedly the fairest beings of ME, the same principles seem to apply (to a lesser degree maybe) to the race of Man.

[Tarien Ithil]

I disagree that elves are shallow, but I've always thought they were a bit like the Romans, you know, seeming better than the rest and acting above all the other races.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

In 'real life' it is also true that after some time good people look much beautiful than bad people, or at least, that's my personal experience. At first sight I only notice the outer appearance, but with time, the personality and behaviour of a person (his 'soul') make me often change my first opinion.

Elves are able of seeing the inner thoughts of people (remember Galadriel) much faster than we are; and probably they can distinguish this 'inner beauty' at first sight [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

On the other hand, do you think that Fangorn forest was 'beautiful' according to standards? Yet Legolas loved it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"Elves are able of seeing the inner thoughts of people (remember Galadriel) much faster than we are; and probably they can distinguish this 'inner beauty' at first sight."

Given the way they fall for the blandishments of Morgoth and Sauron I kind of doubt that.

Granted I was being a bit flip but there's plenty of evidence that the 'High Elves' were unduly influenced by physical appearances. At least in the First Age, there's some indications they improved later, but not much given that Celebrimbor and Co. fell for Sauron, though both Galadriel and Gil-Galad seem to have sensed he wasn't a good 'un.

I admit I am very conscious of our Fair Friend's faults, including a propensity for fair faces and plausible tongues, an inability to handle strife, uncertainty or unpleasant surroundings, and a tendency towards isolationism.

Not to mention tendencies towards arrogance, selfishness and intolerance. A jealousy of Men and resentment of their fate - to fade away and leave the world to the Second Comers.

This is not of course to say that Men and Dwarves, and yes even Hobbits! don't have their faults too. But the Professor himself pointed out Elves were not quite as perfect as they liked to cast themselves.

[akhtene]

My idea is that physical beauty or 'fairness' is an inherent feature of elves, like skin for humans (Just imagine yourself in the company of someone without skin [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) I would call them supercilious (remember the quote about sheep that appear different only to other sheep), so could the looks similar to theirs just make contact easier?
On the other hand, I don't suppose Beren looked all that fair (outwardly) when Luthien first saw him. And hobbits, who are cute but not really beautiful, aren't resented.

As for the elven *obsession* with beaitiful things - well, they had all the time in the world to create, perfect and enjoy them.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I can only quote, (or misquote) Aragorn: 'He who cannot throw away a treasure at need is in fetters.'

Seems to me the Noldor especially are fettered hand and foot by their love for their treasures.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

I fully agree with you, Morwen. Hobbits aren't resented, like someone here wrote, but neither are they taken fully seriously (unless they carry a Ring of Power [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]).
Wood Elves are somehow different, a perfect example being Legolas, who was a great fried of Gimli, as everyone knows. Even Haldir and Co. did not seem to dislike the dwarf just because he was 'stunted', I think it was because of the Shadow brought by the dwarves.
High Elves, however, who have grown up among very beautiful people, might find it hard to believe that someone who is not fair of face can be fair of spirit.
Of course, that's my opinion [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I think that sometimes, they MAY..be shallow, but not ALL the time. I agree with Legolas, a northern soul.

[Finwe]

I think the reason that the reason the High Elves seemed to be slightly biased about looks was that they didn't have as many dealings with other races as the Dark Elves did. That would have influenced any decisions they had made.
As for the whole Celebrimbor/Sauron scandal, I don't blame Celebrimbor. The ones who resisted Sauron's temptations, Gil-galad and Galadriel, were far greater Elves than he. True, he was Feanor's grandson, but nowhere near as great as his grandfather. Celebrimbor's one weakness was knowledge. He wanted to know more. One of Sauron's strengths (and Morgoth's strengths) was being able to perceive others' weaknesses and play on those. That is also what the One Ring did, especially with Boromir.
Sauron knew that the Gwaith-i-Mirdain would be especially susceptible to his temptations because they WANTED knowledge. It was something that drove them beyond all else. I'm not saying that they are completely above blame, I'm just saying that they're not to blame for being swayed by Sauron's "fair form."

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Eagerness for knowledge is of course a good trait but there's no question it leads the Noldor into trouble. The problem with the Mirdain is that they've apparently learned nothing at all from the errors of their elders, (ie: listening to Melkor back in Aman). I've always suspected that Celebrimbor was competing with his grandfather's memory, trying to equal or surpass Feanor. Naturally he'd be ready to lend an ear to anybody who might help him achieve that - and shut his ears to any warnings. But I don't think the Mirdain would have heeded Sauron for a moment if he hadn't had a 'fair semblance'.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Yeah, I think he was trying to surpass Feanor. But Feanor never listened to anybody [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. Which is both a good and a bad thing.
I don't think Celebrimbor could have resisted Sauron. I mean, all that knowledge, willingness to aid. And a fair appearance. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

"Elves are able of seeing the inner thoughts of people (remember Galadriel) much faster than we are; and probably they can distinguish this 'inner beauty' at first sight."
Given the way they fall for the blandishments of Morgoth and Sauron I kind of doubt that.

In Osanwe-Kenta it is said that elves can read other minds but also that any mind can set a barrier that prevents any other mind from accessing it. In my opinion, when Tolkien says that Morgoth and Sauron had a fair appearance, what he means is that they were able to hide their inner thoughts to Eldar, Valar and Maiar; not that they looked like Brad Pitt [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. And vice versa, when Tolkien explains that at some moment they both lost their ability to have a fair appearance, what he means is that they lost the capacity of hidding their inner being to others.

In Osanwe-Kenta, Morgoth's tactics (which can also be applied to Sauron's behaviuor), are also explained, and they were mainly based on the use of a powerful language rather than on showing a beautiful face:

His thought was ever the same, though varied to suit each case (so far as he understood it): he was above all benevolent; he was rich and could give any gift that they desired to his friends; he had a special love for the one that he addressed; but he must be trusted. (...) And this weapon he found in "language". (...) "Alas!" says Pengolodh, "in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be bettered, scarce equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters".
Osanwe-Kenta

To sum up, I agree with Finwe in thinking that what atracted Celebrimbor to Sauron was the knowledge he thought he could obtain from him, rather than his physical appearance, because Celebrimbor (and the other elves of Eregion) believed Sauron's lies:

But Sauron had better fortune with the Noldor of Eregion and especially with Celebrimbor, who desired in his heart to rival the skill and frame of Fëanor (...)
In Eregion Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar , sent by them to Middle-Earth (...) or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves.
History of Galadriel and Celebrimbor, UT

And I also agree with you, Morwen, I don´t think that elves are perfect, of course, they are made of the matter of Marred Arda, like men [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

In my opinion, Tolkien uses the 'love of beauty' in a kind of 'theological' sense: it reflects the longing of the Children of Ilúvatar (Men and Elves) for the world that must have be (Arda Unmarred) and is not. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]