the wizards - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

***Mister Underhill*** · 10-09-2000, 08:29 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 86</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: In case you didn't know...

You're right of course -- surely S began to go bad well before he dreamed up the "White Hand" logo and started slapping it on orc-mail in mass quantities. I was just trying to fix a point-of-no-return. A point when even he could no longer kid himself about his methods and motivations.

His first look into the palantir is a possibility. Which came first, that or claiming Orthanc? I think by the time he'd even moved this far along, he was already at least set up for his fall, since he clearly looked into the palantir without consulting any of the Wise or even making them aware of his find. Maybe at that point he was only guilty of pride, but as they say, "Pride goeth before destruction."

I think he started to slide at the point in his research of the Rings of Power when he began coveting the One Ring for himself. Indeed, perhaps his decision to research the Rings to "help" the Council is a rationalization that is just as weak and self-serving as an alcoholic's claim that he "only drinks socially". His idea that he could control the Ring shows that while he may have been "book-smart", he certainly lacked "street-smarts".

I'd say he was already well on his way to turning "evil" by the time he gained his info on the One Ring and concealed it from the Council. After all, they already were aware of his research by that time and acknowledged that he had the most Ring-lore. And if he wasn't already employing orcs at that point, I'm sure he was using them soon after to search for the Ring near the spot where Isildur fell.

I think it's interesting to observe that in Tolkien's writings, the most gifted of his characters are almost always the ones who fall away. Melkor was the most gifted and powerful of the Valar. The Noldor were the wisest and most favored of the various "tribes" of Elves. Feanor was the most talented and gifted of the Noldor. Of the tribes of Men, the Numenoreans stood at the forefront. And of the Istari, Saruman was clearly acknowledged as the wisest of the Wise. An interesting recurring theme.

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10-09-2000, 08:29 AM	#18
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 86</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: In case you didn't know... You're right of course -- surely S began to go bad well before he dreamed up the "White Hand" logo and started slapping it on orc-mail in mass quantities. I was just trying to fix a point-of-no-return. A point when even he could no longer kid himself about his methods and motivations. His first look into the palantir is a possibility. Which came first, that or claiming Orthanc? I think by the time he'd even moved this far along, he was already at least set up for his fall, since he clearly looked into the palantir without consulting any of the Wise or even making them aware of his find. Maybe at that point he was only guilty of pride, but as they say, "Pride goeth before destruction." I think he started to slide at the point in his research of the Rings of Power when he began coveting the One Ring for himself. Indeed, perhaps his decision to research the Rings to "help" the Council is a rationalization that is just as weak and self-serving as an alcoholic's claim that he "only drinks socially". His idea that he could control the Ring shows that while he may have been "book-smart", he certainly lacked "street-smarts". I'd say he was already well on his way to turning "evil" by the time he gained his info on the One Ring and concealed it from the Council. After all, they already were aware of his research by that time and acknowledged that he had the most Ring-lore. And if he wasn't already employing orcs at that point, I'm sure he was using them soon after to search for the Ring near the spot where Isildur fell. I think it's interesting to observe that in Tolkien's writings, the most gifted of his characters are almost always the ones who fall away. Melkor was the most gifted and powerful of the Valar. The Noldor were the wisest and most favored of the various "tribes" of Elves. Feanor was the most talented and gifted of the Noldor. Of the tribes of Men, the Numenoreans stood at the forefront. And of the Istari, Saruman was clearly acknowledged as the wisest of the Wise. An interesting recurring theme. </p>