Thorondor as a Maia??? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

***Sharkû*** · 12-05-2003, 09:00 AM

What, at least he's a lot closer to a parrot than the orcs! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Seriously though, the character of orcs such as Shagrat/Gorbag or Grishnakh might be explained by Tolkien's idea that there were orcs who are umaiarin in origin (or mannish, Elven, etc) and that some do possess fear. HerenIstarion wrote an excellent essay on that, linked through our FAQ section, proposing a theory of multiple origins, and speculating about the nature of the assumed orcish fëar.
Looking at an orc like Ugluk, on the other hand, I find the 'parrot' idea not too unfitting -- he does not have very much of a mind of his own, does he.

The status of eagles, elevated from that of wild beasts by contact with the Valar also seems credible to me. Certainly Manwe would at least be able to raise 'his' creation slightly.

Eurytus' beloved fox, the ravens of Erebor and other seemingly speaking animals propose greater difficulty, I think. Tolkien admits that they were lightly and perhaps even carelessly adopted, so it might not be too far from the books to suppose that they were in fact exaggerations and colourful inventions by Bilbo writing down There and Back Again and the Fellowship of the Ring into the Red Book.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:12 PM December 05, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

12-05-2003, 09:00 AM	#27
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	What, at least he's a lot closer to a parrot than the orcs! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Seriously though, the character of orcs such as Shagrat/Gorbag or Grishnakh might be explained by Tolkien's idea that there were orcs who are umaiarin in origin (or mannish, Elven, etc) and that some do possess fear. HerenIstarion wrote an excellent essay on that, linked through our FAQ section, proposing a theory of multiple origins, and speculating about the nature of the assumed orcish fëar. Looking at an orc like Ugluk, on the other hand, I find the 'parrot' idea not too unfitting -- he does not have very much of a mind of his own, does he. The status of eagles, elevated from that of wild beasts by contact with the Valar also seems credible to me. Certainly Manwe would at least be able to raise 'his' creation slightly. Eurytus' beloved fox, the ravens of Erebor and other seemingly speaking animals propose greater difficulty, I think. Tolkien admits that they were lightly and perhaps even carelessly adopted, so it might not be too far from the books to suppose that they were in fact exaggerations and colourful inventions by Bilbo writing down There and Back Again and the Fellowship of the Ring into the Red Book. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:12 PM December 05, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]