Providence in LOTR? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Child of the 7th Age · 06-27-2002, 11:14 AM

Mithadan -- This is a beautiful and clear explanation which helps a great deal in understanding the stories. You have both insight and knowledge.

But I still wonder......(to anyone out there who can help).

The Elves and Valar may not go beyond the Music, and may not alter the events as they are outlined. This is actually very much like the traditional northern epics where fate or doom controls all. The brave hero of the Norse or Icelandic poems, for example, fights on, even though he knows that Fate says he will fail.

But don't Elves also have free will to make individual choices in their own lives, to choose to follow light or darkness, to at least control their attitudes and individual responses even if they can not control events? This is different from the ancient sagas where some characters seem to be wholly doomed to follow a certain path from the moment they are born.

Secondly, did Eru make a "mistake" in the way he laid out his plan? Because the Valar had no part in the creation of Men and Elves, they don't seem to fully understand them and their needs. This seems particularly critical in terms of the Elves whose whole destiny is controlled by fate. Eru put forward the Music, but then called on the Valar to elaborate on it and help make it a Great Music. But how can the Valar do this wisely when each only knows his own part, and they know so little about the destiny and nature of Elves? (This problem doesn't arise in Bereishiet--Genesis--because the Valar or angels are not subcreators.)

The Valar, except for Melkor, have good intentions, but sometimes their lack of knowledge leads, perhaps, to bad results. For example, they debate whether the Elves should stay in Middle-earth. A few say the Elves should be free to live there as they please. But the majority are so concerned with protecting them that they summon them back to the safety of Valinor to live under the light of the Trees. The Silm says "from this summons came many woes that afterwards befell." I think that is an understatement given the later history.

I wish I could explain this more clearly, but maybe if Eru had helped the Valar to truly understand the Elves, they would have made a different decision by leaving them free. And the later history would not have been so tortured. So did Eru make a mistake in laying out the ground rules that would govern providence, the elboration of the Music, and the role of the Valar in this process?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

06-27-2002, 11:14 AM	#12
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Mithadan -- This is a beautiful and clear explanation which helps a great deal in understanding the stories. You have both insight and knowledge. But I still wonder......(to anyone out there who can help). The Elves and Valar may not go beyond the Music, and may not alter the events as they are outlined. This is actually very much like the traditional northern epics where fate or doom controls all. The brave hero of the Norse or Icelandic poems, for example, fights on, even though he knows that Fate says he will fail. But don't Elves also have free will to make individual choices in their own lives, to choose to follow light or darkness, to at least control their attitudes and individual responses even if they can not control events? This is different from the ancient sagas where some characters seem to be wholly doomed to follow a certain path from the moment they are born. Secondly, did Eru make a "mistake" in the way he laid out his plan? Because the Valar had no part in the creation of Men and Elves, they don't seem to fully understand them and their needs. This seems particularly critical in terms of the Elves whose whole destiny is controlled by fate. Eru put forward the Music, but then called on the Valar to elaborate on it and help make it a Great Music. But how can the Valar do this wisely when each only knows his own part, and they know so little about the destiny and nature of Elves? (This problem doesn't arise in Bereishiet--Genesis--because the Valar or angels are not subcreators.) The Valar, except for Melkor, have good intentions, but sometimes their lack of knowledge leads, perhaps, to bad results. For example, they debate whether the Elves should stay in Middle-earth. A few say the Elves should be free to live there as they please. But the majority are so concerned with protecting them that they summon them back to the safety of Valinor to live under the light of the Trees. The Silm says "from this summons came many woes that afterwards befell." I think that is an understatement given the later history. I wish I could explain this more clearly, but maybe if Eru had helped the Valar to truly understand the Elves, they would have made a different decision by leaving them free. And the later history would not have been so tortured. So did Eru make a mistake in laying out the ground rules that would govern providence, the elboration of the Music, and the role of the Valar in this process? sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.