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08-19-2002, 08:10 PM | #1 |
Pile O'Bones
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Middle-Earth Geneaology
I am researching Aragorn's history, and I have a question:
I understand that Elrond and his brother Elros (Aragorn's ancestor) were half-elven. After the War of Wrath, Elron chose to be an Elf, while Elros chose to be a Man. How did he do that? How can any one person relinquish his or her immortality? Is it when they marry a Man? Any input on this would be appreciated.
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08-19-2002, 09:57 PM | #2 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2002
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they were given a choice by the valar/illuvatar. well, manwe under eru really.....so eru it is!
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08-19-2002, 10:40 PM | #3 | ||
A Northern Soul
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Manwe gave them his choice, yes.
On the relinquishing of immortality, Squatter of Amon Rudh gave an answer which echoes my own thoughts when the subject came up in the thread 'Passing Over the Sea' started by Thranduil. It was given in response to this post: Quote:
Quote:
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08-19-2002, 10:50 PM | #4 |
Pile O'Bones
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Thank you Legalos for finding that...very interesting. I wondered how that worked! It is interesting how Arwen and Aragorn are related, albeit distantly.
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"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to." Bilbo Baggins |
08-21-2002, 08:24 PM | #5 |
Haunting Spirit
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After Earendil "completed his quest" (to make a long story short) he, his wife, and his children (Elrond and Elros) were given the choice (by Eru through the Valar) to be either men or elves. we all know what they chose
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08-21-2002, 10:26 PM | #6 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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--------
Quote: Elves are never obliged to give up their immortality, but they may choose to do so if they so desire. --------- No. Elves could not give up their immortality even if they desired. Eru Iluvatar is the only one who could allow a change of 'fundamental kind', and he did so only in the cases of Luthien and Tuor.
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08-22-2002, 12:16 PM | #7 |
A Northern Soul
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So what exactly did Arwen do?
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08-22-2002, 02:44 PM | #8 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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hes right, they can not just give it up. arwen is an exception. since elrond is HALF elven, his children must remain with him wherever he goes to stay immortal. arwen did not stay with her father, thus becoming a mortal.
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08-22-2002, 04:52 PM | #9 |
A Northern Soul
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Being with her father had nothing to do with it. [Also, she did not have the choice that Elrond and Elros had. Her ancestry was that of the Half-elven, but her father and mother were both elves...she didn't have any say in the matter.]---this is apparently wrong, it is stated otherwise in the letters...sorry. Read on.
If you think she did have the choice, she had obviously already chosen to be an elf, have lived almost 3,000 years. Surely it was a permanent choice...Elros couldn't go back to being an elf after discovering the hardships of mortality, even if he wanted to. It would have to go both ways. Arwen discovered the hardships of immortality by engaging herself in a relationship with a mortal, and in doing so, watching her father leave her forever. She gave up her immortality because she could not go on without him...because she waited so long to give it up, it's obvious that it was not a matter of the half-elven choice given to Elros and Elrond. Also, Elrond's sons did not stay him (they have sailed over the sea, but it would've been years into the Fourth Age, long after Elrond himself had sailed into the west), but we're not told they became humans and passed away. You could say that she gave up her immortality voluntarily by making choices that she knew would bring great grief upon her and passed away in the same fashion that Miriel passed away, but there's a problem there...was she counted as a man in her final years, or still an elf? I'm not sure there's a quote on that; I shall look. I've never given this matter so much thought! [ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]
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08-22-2002, 05:47 PM | #10 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Arwen was not an Elf (JRRT is quite explicit about this in Letter 345). She was a Half-elf who was allowed a Choice. Elrond was not an Elf. He was a Half-elf who chose to be accounted among the Elves in fate. As is noted in App. A, Arwen was allowed to 'ive with the youth of the Eldar' while Elrond remained in Middle-earth. Butshe still had to choose between 'immortality' and 'mortality' (eventually).
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08-22-2002, 06:50 PM | #11 |
A Northern Soul
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But given almost 3,000 years to decide? I think not.
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08-22-2002, 06:57 PM | #12 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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As I understood from Appendix, the future of all Elrond's children had to be linked with Elrond and his leaving ME.
Quote:
Quote:
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08-22-2002, 10:19 PM | #13 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Why do you 'think not'?
JRRT wrote it, and that is what he decided Arwen did not have to make a choice until Elrond left (though she actually made her choice a couple dozen years earlier in Lorien. She was not an Elf. Luthien is noted as an 'absolute exception' among 'immortals' in being allowed to change her fate. Arwen was allowed to make a choice, not a change, and she had to choose between 'mortality' and 'immortality'. It is as simple (and complex as that).
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Tar-Elenion |
08-23-2002, 12:11 AM | #14 |
A Northern Soul
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'think not' wasn't a good way to put it at all.
Rather, his reasoning doesn't make sense to me. He is the author/creator of this world and it is not some sort of requirement that it make sense, but anyway... She happens to have an ancestry including both elves and men. Because of this chance, she has the freedom to do as she wishes for such a long time while others must suffer the cold reality that they will a) soon turn to ashes and be completely forgotten, or b) live forever and the years will wear on them endlessly as they see others come and go and the world around them change uncontrollably. Were Elros' children given this choice? Why then would Aragorn not have this same choice, and the possibility arises that they may live together forever? Perhaps you could offer further insight. [ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]
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08-23-2002, 12:55 AM | #15 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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According to the Judgement of Manwe anyone with any mortal blood was in any amount was automatically mortal. The only exception to this was if Manwe specifically granted other Doom to one of mixed blood (which was explicitly done with only seven people, Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen). The descendants of Elros did not have a Choice because they were not granted a Choice.
It is not explicitly stated why they were not granted a Choice. Death was considered a Gift.
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08-23-2002, 08:42 AM | #16 |
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The way I understod it was this. Because Earendil and Elwing were part elf part human (and they moved to Valinor) their children, Elrond and Elros, were given the chice to be numbered among men or elves. Elros chose to be among men (Dumb idea) and was chosen as the first king of Numenor and was known as Tar-Minaytur (yes I finally read the Sil). Because of that, His children were not allowed to choose the other way part elven or not. Elrond on the other hand chose to be numbered among the elves and was given immortality. He is also related to tons of people. Gil-Galad, Galadriel, (Marrying Galadriel's daughter he also married his cousin. I thought only hobbits did that) Turin Turambar, Nienor Niniel, you get the picture. Anyway, His kids were in turn given the same choice because they to were descended of Earendil.
By the way, were Elros and Elrond twins?? Who was older. The are listed as some times one first and then the other. I assume twins run in that family since Elladan and Elrohir were twins. [ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Frodo Baggins ]
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