Goblins=Orcs?? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

04-06-2001, 06:55 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Orcs are goblins - goblins are Orcs.

Tolkien says (in the introduction to the Hobbit), that "goblin" is a translation of "Orc".

The idea that goblins are smaller Orcs is completely erroneous (Although in unpublished early drafts, Tolkien did toy with the idea - before inventing "Uruk" to indicate larger goblins).

The misunderstanding arises from two sentences - one in "The Hobbit" and one in LotR. In the former book, a sentence talks about "even the big ones, the great Orcs of the mountains..." This can be interpreted as implying that Orcs are bigger than goblins. But if the emphasis is placed on "great" rather than Orc, with the understanding (gleaned from the intro) that "Orc" and "goblin" are synonyms, then it doesn't indicate this at all.

The second passage is in "The Two Towers", where Pippin and Merry wake up to find themselves surrounded by Orcs. They hear arguing between Ugluk, Grishnakh and the Northerners, and then see U and G standing facing each other. The text says that "around them stood many smaller goblins..." Now, if you stress "goblins" when you read, this implies that goblins are smaller creatures than Ugluk and Grishnakh. But if you emphazise "smaller", you get the correct understanding - that U and G are goblins too - LARGER goblins. This is undoubtedly correct, as both Ugluk (or his severed head) and Grishnakh are described as "goblins" elsewhere in the text.

In fact, "goblin" is used to describe Saruman's Uruk-hai more than any other specific kind of Orc in LotR. As well as the description of Ugluk's severed head (or is it Mauhur's?), we also have the bodies of "four goblin-soldiers of greater stature". This alone is clear proof that "goblin" is a synonym for "Orc", as Tolkien explicitly tells us it is, rather than a term for some smaller sub-group.

By the way, the snuffling tracker in Mordor is never described as a goblin.

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04-06-2001, 06:55 AM	#9
Shagrat Guest Posts: n/a	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 1</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Orcs are goblins - goblins are Orcs. Tolkien says (in the introduction to the Hobbit), that "goblin" is a translation of "Orc". The idea that goblins are smaller Orcs is completely erroneous (Although in unpublished early drafts, Tolkien did toy with the idea - before inventing "Uruk" to indicate larger goblins). The misunderstanding arises from two sentences - one in "The Hobbit" and one in LotR. In the former book, a sentence talks about "even the big ones, the great Orcs of the mountains..." This can be interpreted as implying that Orcs are bigger than goblins. But if the emphasis is placed on "great" rather than Orc, with the understanding (gleaned from the intro) that "Orc" and "goblin" are synonyms, then it doesn't indicate this at all. The second passage is in "The Two Towers", where Pippin and Merry wake up to find themselves surrounded by Orcs. They hear arguing between Ugluk, Grishnakh and the Northerners, and then see U and G standing facing each other. The text says that "around them stood many smaller goblins..." Now, if you stress "goblins" when you read, this implies that goblins are smaller creatures than Ugluk and Grishnakh. But if you emphazise "smaller", you get the correct understanding - that U and G are goblins too - LARGER goblins. This is undoubtedly correct, as both Ugluk (or his severed head) and Grishnakh are described as "goblins" elsewhere in the text. In fact, "goblin" is used to describe Saruman's Uruk-hai more than any other specific kind of Orc in LotR. As well as the description of Ugluk's severed head (or is it Mauhur's?), we also have the bodies of "four goblin-soldiers of greater stature". This alone is clear proof that "goblin" is a synonym for "Orc", as Tolkien explicitly tells us it is, rather than a term for some smaller sub-group. By the way, the snuffling tracker in Mordor is never described as a goblin. </p>