Boromir's Death - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

piosenniel · 08-09-2002, 02:09 AM

What did the death of Boromir accomplish, that couldn't be accomplished if he had continued on as a member of the fellowship?

Why was his death necessary to the story line?

Aule · 08-09-2002, 04:07 AM

If he had lived no one would trust him, and he would still want to get the ring as it had got a hold over him.
But his death saved him from having to put up with the pain of constantly wanting the ring. It also in a way saved his soul. He gave up his life to save Merry and Pippin cancelling out the harm he had done by trying to take the ring

Thinhyandoiel · 08-09-2002, 04:21 AM

But Frodo had already left with the ring, would Boromir be that desperate to follow him all over the Emyn Muil to get it? I mean, I don't even think he knew Frodo had left the Fellowship before he died, and would have been left with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to clear up the "riddle" Sam and Frodo left. Also, Boromir wanted the ring to save his people, to save the White City. Though terribly misguided, his intentions were true. I think he would have argued to follow Frodo and Sam (once they figured out the 'riddle') but would have also went with Aragorn and co. to save Merry & Pippin. I have often pondered this. I think if Boromir had lived, nothing would have drastically changed, and would have actually been a good help to Aragorn and co. on their rescue mission. In other words, I don't think he had to die. Good topic piosenniel! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Thinhyandoiel ]

Telchar · 08-09-2002, 04:32 AM

Does anyone like me think that the pridefull personality that Boromir was would in the end have caused trouble regarding Aragorn taking over the throne of Gondor?
Boromir was, as if not as wise then in temper very much like his father. Denethor didnt give much for Aragorns claims - and there might arise a situation where it came to strife between these to combetants to the throne??? Just thoughts...

Cheers

Thinhyandoiel · 08-09-2002, 04:39 AM

Ah! A good point Telchar! Didn't think of that. Another question to be asked, (by me) is could Denethor have been saved if Boromir had been around? And would that have been a good thing (in light of Telchar's insight)? So...now I'm reconsidering, maybe Boromir's death was a bit necessary, and he actually did help in kicking the bucket (with all due respect to Boromir, love the guy, but he would've caused problems, non?).

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 08-09-2002, 06:17 AM

It is rather interesting that the people who were most likely to stand in the way of Aragorn's accession conveniently die off during the War of the Ring. This subject is explored to great comic effect in Bored of the Rings, which has been mentioned elsewhere.

O'Boile · 08-09-2002, 06:51 AM

Boromir may not have needed to die... but that doesn't mean that he can't. When there is fighting, people die... sometimes the author may just put it in without a point. Although, it is interesting to note that every good guy (at least good at some point) who desires the ring (Boromir, Saruman, Denethor) ends up dead.
Also, Boromir accepts Aragorn's leadership of the company, and seems in the end to treat him like the king he is. Maybe this would have changed had they gone to Minas Tirith however.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 08-09-2002, 07:17 AM

That's what I thought: Boromir seems reasonably happy with Aragorn's leadership of the Fellowship, but that's not the same thing as accepting his sovereignty. I've a feeling that once they arrived at Minas Tirith, Denethor would have flatly denied Aragorn's legitimacy and Boromir, like a dutiful son, would have supported him, especially since to do so would be in his own interests. It could have been very messy.

O'Boile · 08-09-2002, 08:32 AM

Squatter of Amon Rudh what do you think Faramir's reaction would be? Personally, I think he would support his father unless Aragorn's claim was proven to him somehow (maybe Gandalf telling him or something to do with Andruil or something like that). At that point, he would probably support Aragorn.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 08-09-2002, 08:44 AM

Well, it's evident that Gandalf had a lot of influence over Faramir, since it was a bone of contention between both of them and Denethor. The poor fellow would probably have been caught between his mentor and his father; not an enviable position.

Child of the 7th Age · 08-09-2002, 08:50 AM

Pio --

Hey, Pio, you're supposed to be dead, I mean not Barrow-downs dead, but really dead a la our RPG. How can you be posting??

I think there was another underlying reason why Boromir had to die, and that reason why Faramir. Tolkien says in his Letters that this was the character in the LotR whom he identified with most closely. Just as Tolkien and his son Michael had dreams of a great wave coming over an island (Numenor/Atlantis), so did Faramir. In Tolkien's words, "For when Faramir speaks of his private vision of the Great Wave, he speaks for me." p. 232

Tolkien was very fond of Faramir. In one letter, he defends him and Eowyn against criticisms, saying that Faramir was "daunted by his father" and also had a "bossy brother" (i.e. Boromir). "He (i.e. Faramir) had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air." For this reason, to let Faramir grow and mature and find happiness, the stern Numenorean chief and the bossy brother had to go.

And Tolkien could not have created a beautiful vision of the kingdom of Gondor with its proud king Aragorn, and then pair him with a man like Boromir or even Denethor. In Tolkien's idealized kingdom, such men would not have enough dignity and goodness to fill the position of steward of Gondor. Even if Boromir would have accepted the role of steward, he was too flawed with his inordinate love of battle. Faramir, on the other hand, was much closer to Tolkien's ideal --a gentle man, who loved lore and music and who had enough discernment to read men's minds. It's no coincidence that it was Faramir's men, and no other, who were seen by Frodo rising to "have grace" before their meal, i.e. to remember Numenor and the Blessed West that lay beyond. The book leaves the clear impression that the Ringbearer felt humble and rustic that his own hobbit people did not have such a custom.

In a strange way, I have always seen Frodo and Faramir as being somewhat akin to each other in temperament and leanings. One a hobbit and one a man, but both Elf-friends, and sensitive to those things that lay beyond the apparent physical world.

As you might guess from this post, Faramir is my favorite human character in LotR. Hope PJ does a good job with him!

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

piosenniel · 08-09-2002, 11:10 AM

Child - Never mistake the character for the writer!

So, could you say that Boromir was a convenient prop used by Tolkien, an artifice designed to bring out certain aspects of other characters.

He was a character never intended to be fully fleshed out and was discarded when he served his purposes.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 08-09-2002, 11:29 AM

That's a bit harsh. We just don't get much of a chance to get to know him before he dies.

piosenniel · 08-09-2002, 11:55 AM

Quote:

That's a bit harsh. We just don't get much of a chance to get to know him before he dies.

I didn't mean the comment to be harsh. I just think we were never intended to get to know him as he served his purpose and then was whisked off stage.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 08-09-2002, 12:07 PM

That's what I meant: it makes Tolkien sound so ruthlessly calculating about his characters. Boromir's a classic tragic hero: brave, honest and noble, but cursed with a human frailty, namely pride, which, along with the virtue of wanting to save his city, lays him open to the Ring's influence. I think that Tolkien has him die out of mercy: Boromir would never have been able to live with his failure at the Falls.

The Silver-shod Muse · 08-09-2002, 12:50 PM

Boromir has significance to the readers as well as to the characters. His position wasn't a prop, it was an entire sub-story engineered to illustrate a rather touching sub-moral: repentance and the uttermost sacrifice of one's life.

"No man has greater love than this: that he lay down his life for his friends." -somewhere in the Bible (the chapter and verse has slipped my mind)

Raefindel · 08-09-2002, 01:31 PM

That's from John 15:13.

I would agree, that Faramir would not be the same character if Boromir had lived.

And I don't think Pio's remark was harsh, in that Boromir's character has served it's perpose. But is does tend to make Boromir's character sound simplified.

Boromir's relationship with is father and brother is a very intricate and masterful part of the plot.

Brionna · 08-10-2002, 02:21 AM

IMO- Boromir dies so to further endear him to us. Would we have forgiven him as fully if he still lived, instead of dying nobly while trying to protect Merry and Pippin? With his death, he restored all his good and honest qualities. His last actions are selfless and heroic, and those are the characteristics that endure. In this way, Tolkien allows Boromir to do the damage of causing the break up of the Fellowship, and at the same time lets him repent and attone for his sins.

Belin · 08-10-2002, 02:37 AM

Quote:

was discarded when he served his purposes

But he wasn't discarded. In fact, I'd say we get to know him much better after his death than we did when he was part of the Fellowship. During FotR, he seemed fairly churlish and uncooperative to me, arguing with everyone and being tempted by the ring all the time. Minas Tirith was an opportunity to see, literally, where he was coming from, and his desire to save his city is one we (meaning, I) can sympathize with much more easily when we've been there. Furthermore, it is through his relationships with Faramir and Denethor that we come to see him as someone that people cared about, and we don't meet either of them until long after his death. I would argue that, rather than being "whisked off the stage," he lingered on much longer than we might have expected.

In fact, one of the really important effects of his death on the plot that nobody's yet mentioned is Pippin's enlisting in Denethor's service. He says:

Quote:

He died to save us... and though he fell and failed, my gratitude is none the less

and proceeds to offer to risk his own life, and ends up saving Faramir, and this is in RotK! Boromir's still making things happen! Important things, too; his sacrifice is a huge part of what causes Pippin to mature, and the hobbits' growing awareness of the non-Shire world matters very much.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

Shadow of Udûn · 08-10-2002, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Boromir would never have been able to live with his failure at the Falls.

I disagree. I think, if Boromir had lived, he would have been a changed man. I don't think the change came at his death, but before, when he realised what he had done in attacking Frodo. I think he had overcome his greed and would have acknowledged Aragorn as the king. After the fight at Rauros, Aragorn blamed himself -

Quote:

Now the company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed

and yet he recovered from this blow.
I love Boromir - he's so Shakespearian, like in Corialanus. Aragorn and Gandalf are simply heroic characters, but Boromir has to fight within himself to find the courage. Doesn't that make his act of courage all the greater?

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 08-10-2002, 06:57 AM

Yes, I suppose that I did get a bit carried away. Mind you, Aragorn's failure is that much less, in that he never sways from the purpose of the Fellowship. I agree with you about Boromir, though: he isn't perfect, but he does his best and that's as much as anyone can do.

Ravenna · 08-10-2002, 09:46 AM

Boromir's death represents imo his ultimate triumph over himself, he has redeemed himself by his selfless defence of the hobbits, his pride is crushed by losing the fight with the orcs, (never mind that he was vastly outnumbered).
He says to Aragorn that he tried to take the ring, and also that Merry and Pippin are taken, 'I have failed'
Aragorn's reply is that 'No you have conquered.' implying that Boromir has conquered himself, and overcome his faults.
I agree that if he had not died, more problems would have arisen in Minas Tirith, if only that he would have told his father all about the quest and then Denethor would quite likely have looked in his palantir and reavealed, possibly without realising it, the entire plot to Sauron, thus dooming the ringbearers and all the hopes resting upon them.

Kuruharan · 08-10-2002, 10:19 AM

Quote:

his pride is crushed by losing the fight with the orcs

I'm not so sure that his pride was crushed by the defeat by the orcs. I think his pride was crushed by his failure. Ugluk and his merry band of fellows just happened to be the physical circumstances of his death. Or rather, the physical cause of his death.

Ravenna · 08-10-2002, 06:08 PM

I take your point Kuruhuran, my thoughts don't always come out very well in my typing, you've actually said what I was trying to get across, thanks. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Durialion · 08-11-2002, 11:06 AM

I liked Boromir and all, but he was knda stupid. He tried to take the ring and he did help all that much. I would trade him for any elf any day. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Child of the 7th Age · 08-11-2002, 12:00 PM

Durialion --

Boromir "kinda stupid"??? No way. There are many things I might call Boromir, but this is not one of them. We, with the benefit of hindsight, know that the Ring could not be used for any purpose, even an ostensibly good one, since it could only lead to death and destruction. We also have the benefit of hindsight in understanding that Gandalf was not merely a wizard, but a Maia, a member of the hierarchy of Valinor. Boromir would not have clearly understood the first point and probably didn't even have a glimmer about the second. So it was more difficult for him to make a clear judgement about the Ring.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ August 11, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 08-11-2002, 02:27 PM

Quite right. It's always easy to decide with hindsight

Durialion · 08-12-2002, 02:23 PM

This is soooo funny. I rewatched the movie and now I think my favorite character is Boromir. He is cool. He gave his life and he pledged his alligence to Aragorn. And I quote "I will follow you anywhere my brother, my commander, my king. I just thought it over he made up for it. he is cool. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Shadow of Udûn · 08-13-2002, 12:04 AM

Oh, why didn't they just bring along Glorfindel and leave Boromir in Rivendell? He would have been infinitely more useful.

Lord Tohlos · 08-13-2002, 01:03 PM

If they brought Glorfindel, it wouldnt give the story what it has, and our beloved Boromir. I honestly think Borormir should have lived. Any problems with Aragorn and Minas Tirith would have been taken care of by, probably, Gandalf. I think, in my never humble opionion, that Tolkien killed him off so as to prevent the problem with Aragorn and M.T. By killing Boromir off, he wouldnt have to write more to the story. If Bormoir had lived, I would think that LOTR would be longer then it is. Tolkien killed him off to prevent the story from getting longer. If he hadnt killed Boromir off, ROTK would have been several chapters longer, talking about the fights, ect between Boromir and Aragorn about who rules M.T. So, what have we learned? By killing off Boromir, Tolkien has shortened the story, and got rid of what could have been some very good chapters. So, once again in my never humble opinion, Tolkien killed him off to shorten the story. Now, I do not mean to dis Tolkien in anyway by writing this. Once again: Boromirs Death= Less writing, and a shorter story. Boromir Lives: A much longer story, and more entertaining, becuase Im sure all of use wonder what it would have been like if he lived. Boromirs Death: By eliminating him, he can bring in other characters to take his place. Boromir Lives: The extra characters are not needed, hence it would actually cut down on writing by letting him live. I saw no point in his death. It was just to get rid of him, becuase of any difficulty he would have caused, which is actually very little.

Thranduil · 08-14-2002, 09:54 AM

To be honest, you can't focus on that Boromir not dying would've made the story more interesting and longer; his death did do more than that.

First off, things never would've been the same. If you had it so Merry and Pippin would've been taken because Boromir wasn't around at the time, his character wouldn't have changed; there's no redemption (besides, at the begining of the series when Boromir sees the ring you knew that something bad would come of it). Or if you had it so Aragorn would've been able to heal his wounds (it wouldn't have been instantly mind you), the remainder of the Fellowship would've had to wait for him to recover; and that would really mess up the story.

Second, aren't you all forgetting about Faramir?! He's not the exact opposite of Boromir, but he posseses qualities that his brother lacked. If anything, Faramir is the one who proves that not all men are weak and susceptible to the ring (Aragorn doesn't really count; he's the main character, a descendant of Isildur, and his blood hasn't been tainted like Faramir's). If Boromir hadn't died, the character of Faramir would've been diminished (and consequently, all that happened with Denethor) and that would've totally screwed up the story. Could you imagine it back at Minas Tirith, "Hey little bro," "Boromir! You're back!"
No, it wouldn't be Tolkien's style...

Lastly, Tolkien is known for his bitter-sweet stories. Come on, admit it! You knew ONE of the fellowship was going do die didn't you?

Lord Tohlos · 08-14-2002, 10:03 AM

I could have lived without Legolas. Besides, Boromir would have had redemption anways. He would have plenty chances. Now, Tolkien could have decided to kill him off later, IE The Siege of Gondor. That would have been much better then being shot with three arrows at the river. Boromir being killed by the Witch King: Has a bit more to it then being shot with three arrows.

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lord Tohlos ]

Thranduil · 08-14-2002, 10:19 AM

You could've live without Legolas?! How?! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Besides, Legolas had to be there, he represented the elves in the fellowship.

And would've Boromir gotten redemption? If anything this death isn't demeaning; dying to protect 2 little hobbits while fighting off hundreds of orcs all by himself (what, it said he killed about 20-30 of them?) isn't demeaning. Besides, him against the Witch King would've been very anti-climatic. What was the prophecy/saying? The Witch King couldn't be killed by any man? That's why Eowyn and Merry did it (they're not men) and Gandalf could have (he is an Istari and a super-powerful wizard). I'm not saying that Boromir couldn't have killed him, there's always the chance that the saying wasn't true, but it wouldn't have fit the story too well.

Lord Tohlos · 08-14-2002, 10:26 AM

How can I not live with out Legolas? Im not obsessed with him. I like Gimli more. Borormir being killed by the Witch King, not killing the Witch King. Thats a worthy death. All the Urk-Hai had to do was throw him in a tree, knock him out. Being killed by the Witch King is a death he deserved, not being killed by three arrows. Would you rather get a high kill count and be killed by the Witch King, or kill 20-30 orcs, and then get killed with three arrows?

Thranduil · 08-14-2002, 10:35 AM

First off, I'm not obsessed with Legolas. Just gotta clear that.

Second, it wasn't just 3 arrows; that's the movie. And actually, those arrows were huge! But in the book, it doesn't give an exact number, just that Boromir was "pierced by many."

Also, how does dying by the Witch King's hand redeem himself? Sure it's a noble feat, but anyone at Minas Tirith would've tried to do it if it was necessary. But Boromir died trying to protect the Hobbits, trying to make up for his mistake.

Now lets just say that he did live, and would've gotten to go fight the Witch King. Would've the company trusted him? I don't think so...

Lord Tohlos · 08-14-2002, 10:37 AM

Look: Witch King: Saves Pippin, or Merry, I forget which one, and then is promtly killed, Boromir that is. Now, I would think the Fellowship would understand. If you were placed in the same situation as Boromir, wouldnt you want to use the ring?

Thranduil · 08-14-2002, 10:44 AM

You mean, for no good reason the Witch King comes to take Pippin and Merri and Boromir dies fighting him? Actually, yeah, I could live with that. Messes the story up but....meh.

And again, yes, I think the Fellowship would understand. But understanding and trust are 2 different things.

But no, I wouldn't want to use the ring if I knew how dangerous it was. I know it would be tough, knowing that your kingdom is in serious jepordy. But if I felt I was being corrupted, I'd ask to leave the Fellowship.

Lord Tohlos · 08-14-2002, 10:46 AM

No, Witch King about to kill the hobit at the SOG, and Boromir stops him. WK kills Boromir. Most people dont relize they are being corrupted by it, in the early stages, anyway.

Thranduil · 08-14-2002, 10:49 AM

SOG?

Lord Tohlos · 08-14-2002, 10:50 AM

Seige of Gondor

08-09-2002, 02:09 AM	#1
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Boromir's Death What did the death of Boromir accomplish, that couldn't be accomplished if he had continued on as a member of the fellowship? Why was his death necessary to the story line? __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

08-09-2002, 04:07 AM	#2
Aule Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hammering away in Valinor Posts: 126	If he had lived no one would trust him, and he would still want to get the ring as it had got a hold over him. But his death saved him from having to put up with the pain of constantly wanting the ring. It also in a way saved his soul. He gave up his life to save Merry and Pippin cancelling out the harm he had done by trying to take the ring __________________ For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall

08-09-2002, 04:21 AM	#3
Thinhyandoiel Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 187	But Frodo had already left with the ring, would Boromir be that desperate to follow him all over the Emyn Muil to get it? I mean, I don't even think he knew Frodo had left the Fellowship before he died, and would have been left with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to clear up the "riddle" Sam and Frodo left. Also, Boromir wanted the ring to save his people, to save the White City. Though terribly misguided, his intentions were true. I think he would have argued to follow Frodo and Sam (once they figured out the 'riddle') but would have also went with Aragorn and co. to save Merry & Pippin. I have often pondered this. I think if Boromir had lived, nothing would have drastically changed, and would have actually been a good help to Aragorn and co. on their rescue mission. In other words, I don't think he had to die. Good topic piosenniel! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Thinhyandoiel ] __________________ In gwidh ristennen, i fae narchannen I lach Anor ed ardhon gwannen Caled veleg, ethuiannen

08-09-2002, 04:32 AM	#4
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	Does anyone like me think that the pridefull personality that Boromir was would in the end have caused trouble regarding Aragorn taking over the throne of Gondor? Boromir was, as if not as wise then in temper very much like his father. Denethor didnt give much for Aragorns claims - and there might arise a situation where it came to strife between these to combetants to the throne??? Just thoughts... Cheers __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

08-09-2002, 04:39 AM	#5
Thinhyandoiel Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 187	Ah! A good point Telchar! Didn't think of that. Another question to be asked, (by me) is could Denethor have been saved if Boromir had been around? And would that have been a good thing (in light of Telchar's insight)? So...now I'm reconsidering, maybe Boromir's death was a bit necessary, and he actually did help in kicking the bucket (with all due respect to Boromir, love the guy, but he would've caused problems, non?). __________________ In gwidh ristennen, i fae narchannen I lach Anor ed ardhon gwannen Caled veleg, ethuiannen

08-09-2002, 06:17 AM	#6
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	It is rather interesting that the people who were most likely to stand in the way of Aragorn's accession conveniently die off during the War of the Ring. This subject is explored to great comic effect in Bored of the Rings, which has been mentioned elsewhere. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

08-09-2002, 06:51 AM	#7
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	Boromir may not have needed to die... but that doesn't mean that he can't. When there is fighting, people die... sometimes the author may just put it in without a point. Although, it is interesting to note that every good guy (at least good at some point) who desires the ring (Boromir, Saruman, Denethor) ends up dead. Also, Boromir accepts Aragorn's leadership of the company, and seems in the end to treat him like the king he is. Maybe this would have changed had they gone to Minas Tirith however.

08-09-2002, 07:17 AM	#8
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	That's what I thought: Boromir seems reasonably happy with Aragorn's leadership of the Fellowship, but that's not the same thing as accepting his sovereignty. I've a feeling that once they arrived at Minas Tirith, Denethor would have flatly denied Aragorn's legitimacy and Boromir, like a dutiful son, would have supported him, especially since to do so would be in his own interests. It could have been very messy. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

08-09-2002, 08:32 AM	#9
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	Squatter of Amon Rudh what do you think Faramir's reaction would be? Personally, I think he would support his father unless Aragorn's claim was proven to him somehow (maybe Gandalf telling him or something to do with Andruil or something like that). At that point, he would probably support Aragorn.

08-09-2002, 08:44 AM	#10
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Well, it's evident that Gandalf had a lot of influence over Faramir, since it was a bone of contention between both of them and Denethor. The poor fellow would probably have been caught between his mentor and his father; not an enviable position. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

08-09-2002, 08:50 AM	#11
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Pio -- Hey, Pio, you're supposed to be dead, I mean not Barrow-downs dead, but really dead a la our RPG. How can you be posting?? I think there was another underlying reason why Boromir had to die, and that reason why Faramir. Tolkien says in his Letters that this was the character in the LotR whom he identified with most closely. Just as Tolkien and his son Michael had dreams of a great wave coming over an island (Numenor/Atlantis), so did Faramir. In Tolkien's words, "For when Faramir speaks of his private vision of the Great Wave, he speaks for me." p. 232 Tolkien was very fond of Faramir. In one letter, he defends him and Eowyn against criticisms, saying that Faramir was "daunted by his father" and also had a "bossy brother" (i.e. Boromir). "He (i.e. Faramir) had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air." For this reason, to let Faramir grow and mature and find happiness, the stern Numenorean chief and the bossy brother had to go. And Tolkien could not have created a beautiful vision of the kingdom of Gondor with its proud king Aragorn, and then pair him with a man like Boromir or even Denethor. In Tolkien's idealized kingdom, such men would not have enough dignity and goodness to fill the position of steward of Gondor. Even if Boromir would have accepted the role of steward, he was too flawed with his inordinate love of battle. Faramir, on the other hand, was much closer to Tolkien's ideal --a gentle man, who loved lore and music and who had enough discernment to read men's minds. It's no coincidence that it was Faramir's men, and no other, who were seen by Frodo rising to "have grace" before their meal, i.e. to remember Numenor and the Blessed West that lay beyond. The book leaves the clear impression that the Ringbearer felt humble and rustic that his own hobbit people did not have such a custom. In a strange way, I have always seen Frodo and Faramir as being somewhat akin to each other in temperament and leanings. One a hobbit and one a man, but both Elf-friends, and sensitive to those things that lay beyond the apparent physical world. As you might guess from this post, Faramir is my favorite human character in LotR. Hope PJ does a good job with him! sharon, the 7th age hobbit [ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

08-09-2002, 11:10 AM	#12
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Child - Never mistake the character for the writer! So, could you say that Boromir was a convenient prop used by Tolkien, an artifice designed to bring out certain aspects of other characters. He was a character never intended to be fully fleshed out and was discarded when he served his purposes. __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

08-09-2002, 11:29 AM	#13
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	That's a bit harsh. We just don't get much of a chance to get to know him before he dies. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

08-09-2002, 12:07 PM	#15
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	That's what I meant: it makes Tolkien sound so ruthlessly calculating about his characters. Boromir's a classic tragic hero: brave, honest and noble, but cursed with a human frailty, namely pride, which, along with the virtue of wanting to save his city, lays him open to the Ring's influence. I think that Tolkien has him die out of mercy: Boromir would never have been able to live with his failure at the Falls. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

08-09-2002, 12:50 PM	#16
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	Boromir has significance to the readers as well as to the characters. His position wasn't a prop, it was an entire sub-story engineered to illustrate a rather touching sub-moral: repentance and the uttermost sacrifice of one's life. "No man has greater love than this: that he lay down his life for his friends." -somewhere in the Bible (the chapter and verse has slipped my mind) __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

08-09-2002, 01:31 PM	#17
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	That's from John 15:13. I would agree, that Faramir would not be the same character if Boromir had lived. And I don't think Pio's remark was harsh, in that Boromir's character has served it's perpose. But is does tend to make Boromir's character sound simplified. Boromir's relationship with is father and brother is a very intricate and masterful part of the plot. __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

08-10-2002, 02:21 AM	#18
Brionna Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chico, CA Posts: 13	IMO- Boromir dies so to further endear him to us. Would we have forgiven him as fully if he still lived, instead of dying nobly while trying to protect Merry and Pippin? With his death, he restored all his good and honest qualities. His last actions are selfless and heroic, and those are the characteristics that endure. In this way, Tolkien allows Boromir to do the damage of causing the break up of the Fellowship, and at the same time lets him repent and attone for his sins.

08-10-2002, 06:57 AM	#21
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Yes, I suppose that I did get a bit carried away. Mind you, Aragorn's failure is that much less, in that he never sways from the purpose of the Fellowship. I agree with you about Boromir, though: he isn't perfect, but he does his best and that's as much as anyone can do. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

08-10-2002, 09:46 AM	#22
Ravenna Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: witney, oxfordshire Posts: 70	Boromir's death represents imo his ultimate triumph over himself, he has redeemed himself by his selfless defence of the hobbits, his pride is crushed by losing the fight with the orcs, (never mind that he was vastly outnumbered). He says to Aragorn that he tried to take the ring, and also that Merry and Pippin are taken, 'I have failed' Aragorn's reply is that 'No you have conquered.' implying that Boromir has conquered himself, and overcome his faults. I agree that if he had not died, more problems would have arisen in Minas Tirith, if only that he would have told his father all about the quest and then Denethor would quite likely have looked in his palantir and reavealed, possibly without realising it, the entire plot to Sauron, thus dooming the ringbearers and all the hopes resting upon them.

08-10-2002, 06:08 PM	#24
Ravenna Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: witney, oxfordshire Posts: 70	I take your point Kuruhuran, my thoughts don't always come out very well in my typing, you've actually said what I was trying to get across, thanks. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

08-11-2002, 11:06 AM	#25
Durialion Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 42	I liked Boromir and all, but he was knda stupid. He tried to take the ring and he did help all that much. I would trade him for any elf any day. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Durialion the High Elf "I wish the ring had never come to me and this adventure had never happened." Frodo "So do all who live to see these times, but you have to decide what to do when the time comes." Gandalf

08-11-2002, 12:00 PM	#26
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Durialion -- Boromir "kinda stupid"??? No way. There are many things I might call Boromir, but this is not one of them. We, with the benefit of hindsight, know that the Ring could not be used for any purpose, even an ostensibly good one, since it could only lead to death and destruction. We also have the benefit of hindsight in understanding that Gandalf was not merely a wizard, but a Maia, a member of the hierarchy of Valinor. Boromir would not have clearly understood the first point and probably didn't even have a glimmer about the second. So it was more difficult for him to make a clear judgement about the Ring. sharon, the 7th age hobbit [ August 11, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

08-11-2002, 02:27 PM	#27
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Quite right. It's always easy to decide with hindsight __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

08-12-2002, 02:23 PM	#28
Durialion Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 42	This is soooo funny. I rewatched the movie and now I think my favorite character is Boromir. He is cool. He gave his life and he pledged his alligence to Aragorn. And I quote "I will follow you anywhere my brother, my commander, my king. I just thought it over he made up for it. he is cool. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ Durialion the High Elf "I wish the ring had never come to me and this adventure had never happened." Frodo "So do all who live to see these times, but you have to decide what to do when the time comes." Gandalf

08-13-2002, 12:04 AM	#29
Shadow of Udûn Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 32	Oh, why didn't they just bring along Glorfindel and leave Boromir in Rivendell? He would have been infinitely more useful. __________________ What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow...

08-13-2002, 01:03 PM	#30
Lord Tohlos Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The far North Posts: 21	If they brought Glorfindel, it wouldnt give the story what it has, and our beloved Boromir. I honestly think Borormir should have lived. Any problems with Aragorn and Minas Tirith would have been taken care of by, probably, Gandalf. I think, in my never humble opionion, that Tolkien killed him off so as to prevent the problem with Aragorn and M.T. By killing Boromir off, he wouldnt have to write more to the story. If Bormoir had lived, I would think that LOTR would be longer then it is. Tolkien killed him off to prevent the story from getting longer. If he hadnt killed Boromir off, ROTK would have been several chapters longer, talking about the fights, ect between Boromir and Aragorn about who rules M.T. So, what have we learned? By killing off Boromir, Tolkien has shortened the story, and got rid of what could have been some very good chapters. So, once again in my never humble opinion, Tolkien killed him off to shorten the story. Now, I do not mean to dis Tolkien in anyway by writing this. Once again: Boromirs Death= Less writing, and a shorter story. Boromir Lives: A much longer story, and more entertaining, becuase Im sure all of use wonder what it would have been like if he lived. Boromirs Death: By eliminating him, he can bring in other characters to take his place. Boromir Lives: The extra characters are not needed, hence it would actually cut down on writing by letting him live. I saw no point in his death. It was just to get rid of him, becuase of any difficulty he would have caused, which is actually very little. __________________ Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf. "Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!"

08-14-2002, 09:54 AM	#31
Thranduil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 30	To be honest, you can't focus on that Boromir not dying would've made the story more interesting and longer; his death did do more than that. First off, things never would've been the same. If you had it so Merry and Pippin would've been taken because Boromir wasn't around at the time, his character wouldn't have changed; there's no redemption (besides, at the begining of the series when Boromir sees the ring you knew that something bad would come of it). Or if you had it so Aragorn would've been able to heal his wounds (it wouldn't have been instantly mind you), the remainder of the Fellowship would've had to wait for him to recover; and that would really mess up the story. Second, aren't you all forgetting about Faramir?! He's not the exact opposite of Boromir, but he posseses qualities that his brother lacked. If anything, Faramir is the one who proves that not all men are weak and susceptible to the ring (Aragorn doesn't really count; he's the main character, a descendant of Isildur, and his blood hasn't been tainted like Faramir's). If Boromir hadn't died, the character of Faramir would've been diminished (and consequently, all that happened with Denethor) and that would've totally screwed up the story. Could you imagine it back at Minas Tirith, "Hey little bro," "Boromir! You're back!" No, it wouldn't be Tolkien's style... Lastly, Tolkien is known for his bitter-sweet stories. Come on, admit it! You knew ONE of the fellowship was going do die didn't you?

08-14-2002, 10:03 AM	#32
Lord Tohlos Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The far North Posts: 21	I could have lived without Legolas. Besides, Boromir would have had redemption anways. He would have plenty chances. Now, Tolkien could have decided to kill him off later, IE The Siege of Gondor. That would have been much better then being shot with three arrows at the river. Boromir being killed by the Witch King: Has a bit more to it then being shot with three arrows. [ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lord Tohlos ] __________________ Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf. "Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!"

08-14-2002, 10:19 AM	#33
Thranduil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 30	You could've live without Legolas?! How?! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Besides, Legolas had to be there, he represented the elves in the fellowship. And would've Boromir gotten redemption? If anything this death isn't demeaning; dying to protect 2 little hobbits while fighting off hundreds of orcs all by himself (what, it said he killed about 20-30 of them?) isn't demeaning. Besides, him against the Witch King would've been very anti-climatic. What was the prophecy/saying? The Witch King couldn't be killed by any man? That's why Eowyn and Merry did it (they're not men) and Gandalf could have (he is an Istari and a super-powerful wizard). I'm not saying that Boromir couldn't have killed him, there's always the chance that the saying wasn't true, but it wouldn't have fit the story too well.

08-14-2002, 10:26 AM	#34
Lord Tohlos Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The far North Posts: 21	How can I not live with out Legolas? Im not obsessed with him. I like Gimli more. Borormir being killed by the Witch King, not killing the Witch King. Thats a worthy death. All the Urk-Hai had to do was throw him in a tree, knock him out. Being killed by the Witch King is a death he deserved, not being killed by three arrows. Would you rather get a high kill count and be killed by the Witch King, or kill 20-30 orcs, and then get killed with three arrows? __________________ Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf. "Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!"

08-14-2002, 10:35 AM	#35
Thranduil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 30	First off, I'm not obsessed with Legolas. Just gotta clear that. Second, it wasn't just 3 arrows; that's the movie. And actually, those arrows were huge! But in the book, it doesn't give an exact number, just that Boromir was "pierced by many." Also, how does dying by the Witch King's hand redeem himself? Sure it's a noble feat, but anyone at Minas Tirith would've tried to do it if it was necessary. But Boromir died trying to protect the Hobbits, trying to make up for his mistake. Now lets just say that he did live, and would've gotten to go fight the Witch King. Would've the company trusted him? I don't think so...

08-14-2002, 10:37 AM	#36
Lord Tohlos Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The far North Posts: 21	Look: Witch King: Saves Pippin, or Merry, I forget which one, and then is promtly killed, Boromir that is. Now, I would think the Fellowship would understand. If you were placed in the same situation as Boromir, wouldnt you want to use the ring? __________________ Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf. "Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!"

08-14-2002, 10:44 AM	#37
Thranduil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 30	You mean, for no good reason the Witch King comes to take Pippin and Merri and Boromir dies fighting him? Actually, yeah, I could live with that. Messes the story up but....meh. And again, yes, I think the Fellowship would understand. But understanding and trust are 2 different things. But no, I wouldn't want to use the ring if I knew how dangerous it was. I know it would be tough, knowing that your kingdom is in serious jepordy. But if I felt I was being corrupted, I'd ask to leave the Fellowship.

08-14-2002, 10:46 AM	#38
Lord Tohlos Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The far North Posts: 21	No, Witch King about to kill the hobit at the SOG, and Boromir stops him. WK kills Boromir. Most people dont relize they are being corrupted by it, in the early stages, anyway. __________________ Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf. "Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!"

08-14-2002, 10:49 AM	#39
Thranduil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 30	SOG?