Hobbit Origins, Destiny & Fate - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Man-of-the-Wold · 11-20-2002, 03:46 PM

Subtlety is a many-faceted thing. I do not see why Iluvatar could not be both unsubtle at times and then subtle at others.

Allowing as it was for Morgoth to be evil, but having all of Morgoth's work redouble to the glory of the Music seems in a very subtle thing in the most fundamental sense.

To the extent that Elbereth and Manwe were working through Gandalf, Galadriel and Frodo, they were doing it very subtly. This is clearly part of Tolkien's vision for how fate works its way among people exercising free will. How much these pair were working on behalf of Iluvatar is open to question, a subtle one at that. Undoubtedly, they were fulfilling Iluvatar's will in a strangely subtle way.

"Subtle" does not mean passive, gentle or insignificant; it can in once sense imply duplicitiousness, or it can mean working in very intricate, well-designed ways that are not immediately apparent or blunt.

It seems that fate and destiny -- as spun by Iluvatar through the Music -- is replete with such subtlety.

I see no harm in attributing the Hobbit's to Iluvatar's plan in a way that seems imminently logical, however, subtle it may be.

For Tolkien, in such a cases to be too blunt would be to take away from the mystery and subtle beauty that makes the books so fine.

And besides, he only knew what the Hobbits and Wise knew, sometimes less, but never more. And the Wise know not all ends, nor all beginnings.

11-20-2002, 03:46 PM	#6
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Subtlety is a many-faceted thing. I do not see why Iluvatar could not be both unsubtle at times and then subtle at others. Allowing as it was for Morgoth to be evil, but having all of Morgoth's work redouble to the glory of the Music seems in a very subtle thing in the most fundamental sense. To the extent that Elbereth and Manwe were working through Gandalf, Galadriel and Frodo, they were doing it very subtly. This is clearly part of Tolkien's vision for how fate works its way among people exercising free will. How much these pair were working on behalf of Iluvatar is open to question, a subtle one at that. Undoubtedly, they were fulfilling Iluvatar's will in a strangely subtle way. "Subtle" does not mean passive, gentle or insignificant; it can in once sense imply duplicitiousness, or it can mean working in very intricate, well-designed ways that are not immediately apparent or blunt. It seems that fate and destiny -- as spun by Iluvatar through the Music -- is replete with such subtlety. I see no harm in attributing the Hobbit's to Iluvatar's plan in a way that seems imminently logical, however, subtle it may be. For Tolkien, in such a cases to be too blunt would be to take away from the mystery and subtle beauty that makes the books so fine. And besides, he only knew what the Hobbits and Wise knew, sometimes less, but never more. And the Wise know not all ends, nor all beginnings. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.