How could Turin return?

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Hi.

I have a question concerning Turin. In the History of Middle-Earth it is said, that Turin will slay Morgoth with his sword Gurthang.

1. How can Turin live again? He's a Man and that's why he's dead forever, or am I wrong?

2. How could Gurthang be reforged?


Here are some extracts:


"When the world is much older, and the Gods weary, Morgoth will come back through the Door, and the last battle of all will be fought. Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of turin shall be beside him; it shall be turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Hurin shall be avenged.
In those days the Silmarils shall be recovered from sea and earth and air, and Maidros shall break them and Belaurin with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and the great light shall come forth again, and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled so that it goes out over the world, and the Gods and Elves and Men shall grow young again, and all their dead awake."
The Shaping of Middle-Earth, Earliest Silmarillion ~1926

"Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the World is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of turin only, and him it names among the Gods."
The Shaping of Middle-Earth, The Quenta ~1930

Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void, and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Earth and Air and Sea; for Eärendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien, and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.
The Lost Raod and ohter writings, Quenta Silmarillion ~1937

"The greatest of these was Menelmakar, the Swordsman of the Sky. This, it is said, was a sign of turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshadowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days."
Morgoth's Ring, Annals of Aman 1000-1050 ~1950


Thx [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Afrodal Fenyar]

1. Well, he's dead in Arda, but if the men go to a somekind of Heaven, and will there live some other life, then maybe Turin's anger or his fate(or both) will pull him back to Arda to finally slay Melkor. After all, "and the SPIRIT of Turin shall be beside him". If he would be only a spirit, then maybe again his fate or his anger would bound Turin to Arda. Like those ghosts who broke their Oath to Isildur.

2. Maybe he slays Melkor with broken Gurthang, like Isildur cut Sauron's finger? Or maybe it just comes reforged with Turin.

And actually I've got my own question, too:
3: How can Melkor be killed?

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Good question, indeed. Another one is why haven't the Valar killed him at the end of the First Age? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Galorme]

I don’t believe he can be killed in the traditional sense. They did kill him I believe, in that they executed him by destroying his body, and then thrust his spirit from Arda. If its the end of the world I assume his newly made body would be destroyed again, and he would die yet again. But now there is not enough time left before the end to get his power back, and he is effectively "dead" in the same way Sauron was, in that he can never reincarnate.

Edit: before someone else says it I will just say that Tolkien abandoned this idea towards the end of his life.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[Rose Cotton]

Edit: before someone else says it I will just say that Tolkien abandoned this idea towards the end of his life.

Do you mean, he thought there wouldn't be some great "final battle" at the end of Middle Earth?

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

I don't think he abandoned the idea of the Dagor Dagorath .. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Galorme]

Maybe not, but he definatly abandoned the tradition of a fully narative version of it, i.e. the one that included the return of Túrin.

[Manwe Sulimo]

In HoMe IV, it also says that Túrin and Nienor became of the Valar...so he didn't really need to "return" from anywhere.

Melkor could be killed in the same sense as Sauron, yes....but not just in body. Sauron was completely destroyed, because he had poured his power, or life-force, into the Ring. When the Ring was "unmade", so was Sauron. While Melkor didn't have a specific outlet of his power, he did have a weakness in his chosen forms. He could not (would not?) change from the form he took during the Exile and War of Wrath until that form was "killed". He might (might have?) put all his energy into creating a body in the Void/getting out of the Void that his new body would the the *final* vessel of his power. Therefore, when the body was destroyed, so would Melkor.

Gurthang could just be reforged in the conventional sense (i.e. taken by a smith and reforged) or in the spiritual sense (another sword made of a meteor? that Túrin named Gurthang in memory of his original sword).

And, of course, this is all a load of cr*p from me, which might, somehow, make sense, or it may just be another one of my senseless ramblings that says nothing and means even less.

I'm just happy I have the expanded DVD [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Morgoth Bauglir]

well, i just read the part that discusses the fate of men in the bolt part 1, and it said that men go to the halls of the wife of mandos, and some go to his hall. from there either they go to melkors pits (hell), wander in the plains of arvalin (purgatory), or dwell in valinor with the gods(heaven).

so there you have it, he could return, but later all this was changed into the silmarillion. so i am guessing this was all in a super early form.

[Aiwendil]

Do you mean, he thought there wouldn't be some great "final battle" at the end of Middle Earth?

Whether he abandoned the Dagor Dagorath is debatable. It is definite that he abandoned the Turin prophecy - we know this because he replaced it with a prophecy wherein Turin returns at the end of the first age to slay Ancalagon (instead of Earendil). This revision was unworkable for the published Silmarillion, so Christopher left it out.

In HoMe IV, it also says that Túrin and Nienor became of the Valar...so he didn't really need to "return" from anywhere.

True; but the prophecy occurs in QS from HoMe V, wherein (unless my memory fails me), Turin and Nienor do not become Valar.

Sauron was completely destroyed, because he had poured his power, or life-force, into the Ring.

I'm not sure whether this is precisely true. I can't recall any specific reference at the moment, though, so I can't really argue. At any rate, I think you are right that Sauron was defeated in a far more profound way than was Morgoth. I always suspected that there was some connection between the mystery-shrouded defeat of Morgoth at the end of the world and the central analogy of "Morgoth's Ring". If Melkor had indeed dispersed his power through Arda just as Sauron had focused his in the Ring, then it follows that Melkor cannot be finally defeated unless the world is destroyed, just as Sauron cannot be so defeated until the Ring is destroyed.

Gurthang could just be reforged in the conventional sense (i.e. taken by a smith and reforged) or in the spiritual sense (another sword made of a meteor? that Túrin named Gurthang in memory of his original sword).

Another somewhat outrageous possibility: perhaps whatever intelligence was in Gurthang actually had some kind of spirit or fea, and later possessed a new blade. Of course, I don't believe that for a second.

but later all this was changed into the silmarillion. so i am guessing this was all in a super early form.

Exactly. The concept you described was pretty definitively abandoned, as we have very firm evidence from later on that Men make a stop at Mandos, then depart from the world.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

i dont remember men stopping at mandos in the silmarillion, can you please provide some evidence?but i do know that they leave the world.

you stated that my idea of them going to mandos was abandoned, as it was, but then u said they make a trip there before the end. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Morgoth Bauglir ]

[akhtene]

i dont remember men stopping at mandos in the silmarillion, can you please provide some evidence?

Beren stayed at Mandos after he died, and there Luthien met him as she had foretold.
Was he the only mortal who got there?- I don't know.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

The 'spirit of Turin'... well that at least still exists, you know. And it might not actually be Gurthang. Turin's trademark was the Black Sword in life; why not in death? And did Gurthang itself not speak to him just before his death? (even if it was just Turin going mental, the sword did seem to have a will of it's own). Well it too must have had a spirit then. Bound in life the two were; perhaps too in death.

[lathspell]

The answer of the return of Turin is in your own quotes, Witchking-of-Angmar.

In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.

If he is in the Halls of Mandos, as the quote says, he could be summoned back by the Valar. But it was not the faith of Men to go to the Halls of Mandos. I don't remember what it says when he dies in either the Silmarillion or Narn i Hin Hurin.

If he is in the Halls, he could return.

greetings,
lathspell

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Huh, crap, I've missed that. ^^

But the question shall than be, how could he get into the Halls of Mandos? Well, well .. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[*Varda*]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all men go to the Halls of Mandos after their death? Well, including the elves that died too. And there they waited until the Final Battle and so on? Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't actually read that part.

I do like the idea of the Dagor Dagorath, the Final Battle. And that Turin slays Morgoth, because, to be honest, he didn't exactly have the best life, marrying his sister by accident.

Also, where is the quote that says Turin and Nienor became Valar? I just can't envision this happening.

I don't think Sauron's defeat can really be compared to Morgoth's defeat. Sauron, after all, was a lesser being than Morgoth, he being a Maia and Morgoth a Vala. Also, he poured so much of his energy and life into the Ring, that when it was destroyed his spirit probably collapsed.

Whereas, with Morgoth...the most I can see happening is him being cast back into the Void for another 5 ages...but everything would be different by the Final Battle.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Huh, I don't think Men went to the Halls of Mandos like the Elves did. In fact, I can't really remember what happens with the spirits of Men after death. The only thing I know is that they aren't bound to Arda.

Well, wenn Turin went to the Halls of Mandos, how did he get there and furthermore, what did he do there, when he will be counted among the Valar? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[burrahobbit]

Men go to Mandos, but normally they leave very shortly. Beren stuck around for a while, though.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

i didnt know that burra. i know that in the BoLT p1 they go there, but in the silmarillion i didnt think they did. i thought beren went there just because luthien asked him to.

[Lindril Arvilya]

Warning: This is all out of my head.
If Morgoth's spirit was "unbreakable"- because of his Vala ability to "reincarnate"- then could it be that only another spirit could kill his? I wouldn't expect a living mortal or immortal to be able to kill a god. But how about the dead? Would that not give Turin a bit of an advantage in that he can't die if he's already dead? Perhaps Morgoth would have some sort of weakness to that. Sorry about my digression, I was just typing as I wrote.

[lathspell]

Burra is right. Men go to the Halls of Mandos, but only for a short while.

Lindril Arvilya: Melkor was no longer one of the Valar after he destroyed the Trees with Ungoliant and stole the Silmarils, killing Finwë, High-King of the Noldor. The Elves and all others didn't see him as one of the Valar anymore. With that he lost his ability to "reincarnate", he was stuck in the shape which he chose to destroy the Trees and all.
About the dead. I don't they would have an advantage above the mortals or immortals. And I don't think there will be any dead people in the Dagor Dagorath. For all of the dead Elves shall be called and reincarnated by the Valar, and Iluvatar shall call back the mortals.

greetings,
lathspell

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

How do you know that? Although the Elves and all others don't regard him as a Vala, I think he's still one of them(Valar). [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: The Witch-King of Angmar ]

[Dimaldaeon]

Heres my attempt at trying to explain why the Valar didn't kill Morgoth.
Evil can never really be killed. There must always be a balance in the world. I mean if there is no evil how will we know what is good, if ther were no shadows how would we know what is light. Tolkien also used his religious beliefs to great extent in the Sil. In the Bible, the final chapter to be exact, it states the God will not kill Satan in the conventional sense, yes he and the Dragon and the False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire but it dosen't state the God will unmake him. Speaking of religion, Tolkien also greatly believed in forgiveness and redemption. He states the nothing was evil in the beginning and nothing is completely evil. Evil is not in itself a single entity it is a byproduct of pride and jealousy

[Galorme]

He states the nothing was evil in the beginning and nothing is completely evil.

That’s a wonderful statement, and very true, thought it does conjure up a rather odd image. Which is this:

Maybe Túrin, after spending a long time in Mandos, repented on his hateful killing ways, and decided that Morgoth was just misguided and unlucky. Maybe he remembered the words of his sword and realised his warrior ways had only bought death to his family.

Soooo... he comes forth from Mandos, and slays Morgoth with the black sword? Maybe its a metaphor. Maybe what he actually does is sits him down, and slays the evil in Morgoth’s heart by revealing the revelations about war and death he made in Mandos using the example of Guarthang (sp?). So he “slays” the evil in Melkor, making him no more Morgoth the Dark Lord, and making him again Melkor the Repented.

He he, that sounded more and more ridiculous as I wrote it. But it could be a slightly more likely metaphor. The Black Sword represents the work of the elves, being the language and love they left in men’s hearts. Túrin represents Man. Melkor represents Evil. Túrin, being Mankind slays or defeats evil using the teaching of the elves. Thus Arda Marred becomes Arda Healed.

Note: Tolkein did not mean any of this, of course. He never used extended metaphors like this, to the best of my knowledge, unless he explicitly stated it was so. But I just think its fun.