Are Tolkiens Books Sexist?

[bombur]

Oh sorry Lush... I’m the kind of person to make everything personal... I don’t do smalltalk. Either discussion is academical truthseeking discussion of interresting QUESTION or it is open and truthseeking debate of issue/value-choise of which I have strong personal opinion... or I listen silently... I try not to judge PEOPLE, but if I consider someone to be in error, I do critisise the opinion written with all the subtlety of a doberman. Sometimes I erraneously critisise the person as well. I try to be open and tolerant to similar attitude to my own opinions and I hope that you are tolerant to my manner and take it with a grain of salt not to be offended by it. I am sorry, Tolkiengurl for both misreading your alias and for my quite agressive attitude. I consider your words to be totally unapprovable still though.

Camelian is a quite romantisiced book and movie of the life of a woman living as courtesan (subtely paid mistress) and dying of tuberculosis in the 1800’s (1800’s, I think at least...).

I said, that to a degree I agree with Lush. ”I do see it as a viable choice for women who would otherwise starve” was what she said. I tried to say this: one should not consider it a free choise and one should not further victimise those who END UP to it, even by ones disapproving attitudes.

Basically it seems to me that we are in disagreement over the first issue. The choise of life in prostitution has all the same charachteristics that were given to a factory worker in the 1816, do this or starve. It is by no means a free choise. Even in Finland the system is such that the choise is, do this or live in quite a discomfort and need. I have heard of a person who made a free choise of becoming a prostitute, but she is exemption, not the rule. Typically, but not always, a prostitute in Finland is a Russian semi-permanent resident / tourist with the first kind of choise or a finnish case of person who is a fallthrough case of the social security network often also having other problems she did not get help with like drug use or emotional problems. This is a case somewhere between those two choises.

Lush: ”As for Aragorn being a "man" and Arwen being "pretty", well...uh, the last time I checked, heterosexual men usually tend to be sexually attracted to pretty women.” Last time that I checked heterosexual men are attracted to some but not all women and ”pretty” was no guarantee (though perhaps a bonus for the chance) of the attraction being there. I of cource to a degree see these things subjectively. Maybe there are men out there somewhere who really conform to the stereotype of an ape drooling after everyone with d+ cupsize and b- waist. I have noticed men drooling over slightly different things in real life then in TV however, myself included. Including myself does not mean that I know it all, but at least gives me one more unit of undeniable source material then you Lush has. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Why do men sleep with the lookers and marry the grey types anyway (just to go from one invalid stereotype to another)?

Belin: ”...about sexism implied by women not going out and killing lots of scary monsters... It implies that killing scary monsters is the only way to have value...” Incidentally, of this I agree completely. This is my basis for criticism to the chaimailbikini-bimbo stereotype in the literature. I’m not sure if I have yet said that in this discussion, but I think that it is not real equality that a woman kicks mans in the grotch in a movie. Real equality is that a woman can be a hero in a movie without adhering to the stereotypical behavior patterns of male heroes (and that also even a MAN can be hero without kicking people in the grotch.)

What comes to sexappeal as a source of power.... whatever happens that is just reality. We can discuss degrees of its precence and desirability till sahara floods and hell freezes, but it will not go away even if the whole world did give lipservice to the idea that it should not be so. Myself being somewhat involved in politics I know for a fact that power IS a social functioning of people. Power is negotiation, pressure, conflict, allying, yielding and then more negotiation. I once chatted with a comerade in a cafeteria. We both are overweight and have a dose of charisma or strong precence though perhaps not the looks. We both recognised the fact that we shamelessly use flirting and sensuality for influence. Me being man and she a woman, we use out own sexuality in somewhat different manner, but we definately use it. And let me empahsise the this is not about sleeping with someone for favors or giving favors for sex , that actually wont get you far or give you much. We started a spontaneous debate to find a comerade who does not do this. We found two (out of maybe hundred we know.) Both were heawyweight politicians, had great experteese in limited subject, relentless working habits and all of the manners of a heawy combat tank. Everyone uses it exept for those so well established to a role and position that it would actually hinder and not help. And this does not base the power on looks but rather on skill to use ones own mind, putting us right back at squre one.


Janne Harju