Morgoth Part Of Eru?

[Dimhuanion]

If all the valar were certain parts of Eru the one, then surely this means that Morgoth was representing the darker side of Eru?

Therefore does this mean that there was a part of Eru that was also very dark, a side of him that maybe new that there was going to be strife on Middle Earth and maybe he knowingly let it happen.

I have atheory that maybe Manwe and Morgoth were the two sides of Eru and that he wanted to see what would be more powerful Good or Evil, maybe he was testing to see what would happen and this is why there were Maia who were also good and evil. Its jsut something i've been thinking about i would be interested in waht other people think.

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Dimhuanion ]

[tom bombariffic]

I dunno if Eru really had a genuinely evil part...like I said in the discussion string about the dwarves and aule etc each of the Valar was the spawn of a different part of Eru's mind, and therefore only when they came together could they create the world. Anyway, I dont reckon he was from an evil part of Eru's mind, maybe from a cunning part, or the part that desires power, because we know that Eru did want power, and for everyone to worship him. I reckon Morgoth was from that part, but because he was able to think for himself, as all the valar were, he realised that the best way to gain his own power was through evil.

[Legolas]

Actually, all of the beings in Ea have free will apart from what Eru would have them do (and at the same time, it is what Eru wants them to do ultimately, as he has given them this free will). Because of *and* in spite of this free will, because they are of Eru, that is, existing in his world, they are bound to the ultimate goodness of him that is, of course, exemplified in his creation.

This is the third time in the last couple of hours I've found myself going to this quote, from Letter No. 153:

To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way (...) to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences. So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them. That God would 'tolerate' that, seems no worse theology than the toleration of the calculated dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today. There might be other 'makings' all the same which were more like puppets filled (only at a distance) with their maker's mind and will, or ant-like operating under direction of a queen-centre.

And two more (that thorondil pointed out in another thread)...

From The Silmarillion:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument, in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

Letter No. 212, on Aulë's making of the dwarves:

The One rebuked Aule, saying that he had tried to usurp the Creator's power; but he could not give independent life to his makings. He had only one life, his own derived form the One, and could at most only distribute it. 'Behold' said the One: 'these creatures of thine have have only thy will and thy movement. Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to thee thine own thought. This is a mockery of me.'
Then Aule in grief and repentance humbled himself and asked for pardon. And he said: 'I will destroy these images of my presumption, and wait upon thy will.' And he took a great hammer, raising it to smite the eldest of his images; but it flinched and cowered from him. And as he with withheld his stroke, astonished, he heard the laughter of Iluvatar.
"Do you wonder at this?' he said. 'Behold! thy creatures now live, free form thy will! For I have seen thy humility, and taken pity on your impatience. Thy making I have taken up into my design.'

We see both Aulë and Morgoth stepping outside of what the reader would expect of the Music of Arda. The seemingly wrong notes these two hit by "defying" their creator are actually in accordance with part of his plan: for the beings to exhibit their free will.

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]