Íluvatar's opponents?

[The Saucepan Man]

No. He didn't *need* and doesn't need anything, nor will he ever. Any being doing good or evil - any being doing what he intended it to do, which is "being" - is fulfilling his plan. It only shows us that his design is perfect. He knew it from the beginning.

Arghh! I'm getting a headache Legolas! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I understand that a divine being like Eru doesn't have needs, in the sense of needing his works to be appreciated. But, if everything that happens, whether good or evil, happens according to his will, doesn't that render him kind of obsolete, apart from the act of creation? He needs take no further part, since all that happens was meant to happen. This contrasts with the Christian God, who send plagues and floods and the like when humans stray from the path and, in the New Testament, takes human form to preach love and forgiveness and to die for the sins of humanity.

It seems to me that Eru did intervene, through his representatives on Arda, the Valar, and through their messengers (the Istari, for example). And, why would this to happen if there was not some divine purpose that required to be fulfilled (rather than simply existence)?

As for the necessity of evil, I am attracted by Jurion's idea that evil was a necessary part of Eru's design because, without evil, there could be no appreciation of good and also, more importantly, there could be no exercise of free will without a choice between two (or more) paths. By exercising their free will to choose good, and fight evil, the "good" characters are given an opportunity to reach their full potential. This would not have happened had evil never existed. That is not to say that Eru intended all the suffering that occured in consequence of the existence of evil, merely that it was a necessary part of the divine plan.

Read my last post Saucepan!!! Respond to it! I'd like to know what you think. Also, I wish you didn't push anthropomorphism into the realms of pride and jealosy when dealing with God, your taking it a little to far when you make jokes about such matters. What do you think of the characteristics of Eru/God?

Sorry, Iarwain. I had not seen your post when I typed my original reply, but I did edit it to put in a response. I mean no offence. I am addressing the position of Eru, a fictional (albeit divine) character, not seeking to be flippant about God. My own spiritual beliefs are pretty unique to me and, since they are quite different from JRRT's portrayal of Eru, they are probably not a suitable topic for dicussion here. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]