"13th Warrior" Vs. "Lord of the Rings"

[Birdland]

Just watching the "13th Warrior", (excellent movie. See it!) and was comparing Tolkien's vision of Anglo Saxon society compared to what is depicted in the former film.<P>So...do ya think Aragorn and Boromir would have washed out of the same bowl, if Boromir blew his nose in it, first?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Birdie--<P>LOL. I love it. It sounds great! <P>Just remember that Tolkien was a language person rather than an historian. And a poem like Beowulf presents a very idealized portrayal of the period in question. JRRT certainly knew that. He also loved and preferred that idealized picture rather than getting down into the dirt and digging through to find the remains of people's garbage. And I do mean the literal remains!<P>You know I have a degree in medieval English history. I personally liked the "get down and get dirty" approach. I was a social historian and also did a field in archaeology with Leslie Alcock at Cardiff. And believe me, your example of the fellow blowing his nose and then using the same bowl isn't far off. It is said that one of the reasons why Richard II lost his throne is that he had the gall to import the handkerchief and the fork from France which were both considered highly suspect! And that was the late 14th century, long after Beowulf.<P>But both these views of the period are "true": the idealization of Beowulf and the reality of peasant life. Just look at our own society. You could point to some things, and make people believe we're forging ahead with "progress" and then point to others which can leave you virtually in tears. And neither of them is a lie. Just different pieces of the same reality.<P>Sounds like I should go see that movie.<P>sharon<p>[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Bill Ferny]

The 13th Warrior isn't very high on my list of good movies, but it did have its moments. Actually, I think that PJ would have them wash from the same bowl, but I, like 7th, doubt that Tolkien would.<P>It kind of reminds me of fixing a bowl of cereal, getting the milk poured, and then realizing you don’t have a clean spoon. C’mon! You know you’ve at least looked at those dirty spoons in the sink! <p>[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Dimaldaeon]

Em the 13th Warrior (great movie) wasn't based in Anglo-Saxon England, it was based around the Vikings.<BR>Evidence for Viking theory: They sail in a long boat, they have names like Skeld, they burn their dead in a ship, the are called Northmen, the film takes place in Scandanavia and oh yeah they speak Norse.<BR>Evidence for Anglo-Saxon theory: Emmmmmm

[Nilwen]

I have seen 13th warrior.Ihave also read a book that was exacly like the movie.The book title was Eaters of the Dead,I think.I can't remember the author but it was a good book.

[Birdland]

Now, now, Dimaldaeon - Yes, the Vikings were Norwegian and the Saxons were Germans, but both were sea raiders. And if you were living in Baghdad, you'd probably call them both "Northmen".<P>But the whole point of the thread was that I was watching the movie, and comparing the very crude behavior of the Northmen in the film with the "cleaned-up" images that P.J. was giving us of Tolkien's noble "North Men". In other words: this thread is nothing but a big joke! <P>I was hoping more people would share in it, but I guess not very many people out there have seen the movie. (Sigh) Guess you had to be there.

[Evenstar1]

Hi All!<P>(Note: "Eaters of the Dead" is a book by Michael Crichton (sp?). The name of the book was changed to "The 13th Warrior" for the movie.)<P>Yeah, Birdland, I saw that movie and the whole "bowl scene" was gross. It was uncomfortable for me to see that scene, except that, being familiar with Crichton's attention to plausibility (I haven't read "Eaters of the Dead," but I have read "Jurassic Park" and "Timeline" -- you'd like "Timeline," Bird!), I accepted it as something that they really would have done "back then." You know, another thing that may have triggered the JRRT/13th Warrior parallels is the whole Nordic-thing, since Tolkien was really into Norse mythology and I always felt that it resonated somewhat in Middle Earth. (More so in the Sil, but a little in LOTR...)<P>Bill Ferny, I think you're right about "PJ would have shown it, but Tolkien wouldn't have written it." Things were more refined and proper in JRRT's mythological landscape -- even out into the middle of nowhere, Sam has carried his pots and pans!<p>[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Evenstar1 ]

[Susan Delgado]

When my dad rented the movie for my brother and me, he explained in some detail about the tradition of the last "little person" to round out a group of warriors on a quest of this nature. He also compared it and Antonio Banderas' character extensively to <I>The Hobbit</I> and Bilbo, respectively, and he of course mentioned <I>Beowulf</I> and <I>Eaters of the Dead</I>, neither of which I've read, to my great chagrin. <BR>My father is a very smart and well-read man and it was a very interesting speech. I wish I remembered it better.<P>One thing I do remember clearly: he mentioned a theory (I'm not sure whether it was his or someone else's) that the monsters in <I>Beowulf</I> and <I>Eaters of the Dead</I> were actually the last clan of Neanderthals remaining in Europe, who were of course subsequently wiped out.

Oh,that was so gross when I saw that face washig, nose blowing senario. I loved Antonios' reaction.<BR>Aragorn was bought up by Elves, so not a chance!!! Boromir - hope not

[Birdland]

I am reading Crichton's book right now. The really interesting thing is that "Eaters of the Dead" is a summation of the actual writings of the 10th century Muslim scholar Ahmad Ibn Fadlan, who actually traveled with the "Northmen" and participated in the events shown in the film. <P>The "Beowulf" theory is discussed in the book, (The leader of the warriors is named "Buliwyf"), and since Tolkien wrote one of the definitive essays on "Beowulf", I can only think that he was at least familiar with Ibn Fadlan's writings, which have been studied and discussed by Eastern and Western scholars for many, many years. <P>Ibn Fadlan was, to say the least, not really impressed with the hygiene or social customs of the Northmen, (of which the washing scene is but a mild example. There's plenty worse in the book), but he came to admire their courage and the attitude with which they faced death and hardship.<P>Then "neanderthal" theory is not addressed in the film or book, but it is an interesting one. I was not sure myself just what people the "Wendol" were suppose to be, (I thought maybe Scynthians).<P>Funny thing: this thread started as a joke, as the characters in the film "The 13th Warrior" look, and wear the same outer trappings as the Men portrayed in "Lord of the Rings", but their behavior is so outlandish and crude compared to the fairly "civilized" behavior of Aragorn and Boromir.<P>But now it has taken a more interesting turn. I suppose Tolkien is guilty of the same thing as every other teller of tales is. Never let the Facts get in the way of the Truth.

[Tirned Tinnu]

Great thread. I loved 13th Warrior, and have it in my permanent collection, not for its action, but for its actors and love of language. I regularly watch it with the subtitles on so that I can read everything. It's great to see the names of the Vikings spelled correctly. <BR>Now here is what I found on the Rus, the Vikings depicted in 13th Warrior, (at least I think so.) <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Vikings came to Russia through the trade routes from Sweden down the Russian rivers, particularly the Don and the Dnieper, which led south to the markets of Bulgar, Khazaria, Byzantium and the Caliphate. Some reached as far East as the Caspian Sea and as far south as Baghdad. They traded amber, furs, honey, slaves, wax and weapons, for the luxuries of civilization, silk and silver (large hoards of Arab dirhems have been found throughout Scandinavia.) They founded the great cities of Starja Ladoga, Kiev and Novgorod. They were known as Rus, a name whose origins are the subject of some controversy. The majority view seems to be that it is a Finnish name for the Vikings of Sweden, but it seems to have ended up being used to describe all Russians, whether Norse or Slavic. The earliest mention of the name is in the Frankish Chronicles of St Bertin, where emissaries of the Svear (Swedish) people appeared in the court of Louis the Pious (son of Charlemagne). They had travelled from Byzantium, and asked for safe conduct home to Scandinavia, as the danger of attack by the tribes on the Russian rivers had made it impossible to return the way they had come. Louis was subject to attacks from the Vikings, and regarded these people as possible spies.<P>The Rus were certainly in the region as early as the beginning of the 9th century. According to the Russian Primary Chronicle, compiled in Kiev in the early 12th century, the Slavs invited the Swedish chieftain Rurik and his two brothers to rule them in 862 AD. In fact, the Rus seem to have kept mainly to the regions along the rivers - their relations with the Slavs being mostly confined to exacting tribute and raiding for slaves. Among their neighbours was the empire of the Khazars, stretching around the Black Sea from the Danube to the Caspian. The Khazars were a Turkic race which had been converted to Judaism in the 8th century AD, and according to some sources were the overlords of the Rus.<P>The Rus were described in 922 by the Arab diplomat Ibn Fadlan thus:<P>“Never before have I seen people of more perfect physique. They are tall as date-palms, blonde and ruddy.” (Roesdahl, 1991)<P>However, he also said of them:<P>“They are the filthiest of Allah’s creatures; they do not wash after ****ting and peeing, nor after sexual intercourse, and do not wash after eating. They are like wayward donkeys” (Ibid.)<P>According to Ibn Fadlan, the Rus he encountered did wash once a day, but all used the same water, and their ablutions included spitting and blowing their noses into the communal washbowl and handing it to the next person. He may have been exaggerating to shock his fastidious Arab audience. After all, the Anglo-Saxons at about the same time were railing against their own people taking up the effeminate Viking practices of washing and combing their hair. Or maybe this is a comment on how much worse the English were! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wow... now we know where this knowlege came from...interesting, no?

[Susan Delgado]

Very! Thanks, Tirned <P>I do have <I>Eaters of the Dead</I> somewhere in my library; I'll have to search for it.<P>As for the Neanderthal theory, next time i see my father, I'll mention it.

[Kalimac]

Ah, good old Ibn Fadlan - I've never seen 13th Warrior, but I'll always remember him fondly just because he inadvertantly caused one of the most hilarious movie reviews I ever read - the guy writing the review apparently was unaware that Ibn Fadlan was real person ("of COURSE there wouldn't be an Arab in Viking country, that's absurd!") so spent half the review trying to figure out what he was a symbol of, or what the letters of his name might spell if rearranged (maybe it's an anagram?). If he had read even one book about Vikings he would have come across, if nothing else, Ibn Fadlan's account of the ritual rape/murder of a deceased king's concubine; I have yet to see a text on Vikings that doesn't quote the whole thing in every detail. <P>But back to Tolkien - not to throw too much cold water on Ibn Fadlan, but he was coming from a very different culture where different things were valued; frequent washing may have been exalted (as with us) but camping/building/find food wherever possible skills which the Vikings had may not have been so thoroughly developed, at least not for people of his social class. (Though it's probably fair to guess that lower-status Arabs didn't get a shot at much more than one bath a day either, if that). The sort of things he notes were obviously ingrained habit - not the kind of things people would notice about themselves, simply because they're so taken for granted. (How many of us, if visited by an alien who thought that five baths a day AT MINIMUM was the only way to be clean, would decide that that meant that we were dirty? No, we'd think we were normal and he was a little, well, alien). I'd maintain that the portrait Tolkien was painting was more of the Anglo-Saxons as they saw themselves at their absolute best (and let's face it, though Anglo-Saxons and Vikings weren't the exact same things, they were close enough in time and location that their cleanliness habits were probably almost identical), what we're seeing is the stuff the sagas were built around; not necessarily saintly, but leaving out all the background dirt and lice - not to hide anything, but because it's basically irrelevant to the story. <P>It is slightly depressing to think about. Nobody wants to think about Eowyn picking lice out of her hair or the fact that valiant Snowmane probably had fleas aplenty, and that Wormtongue probably didn't bathe terribly often (OK, maybe that part isn't a problem). But when we see the cleaned-up versions in the book, or on the screen, in a sense what we're seeing is truer than if they showed us everything that Ibn Fadlan saw. After all, if EVERYONE is like that, it rather cancels it out, doesn't it? <P>The Elves are a sticking point, that's true - but we're not seeing the story from the Elves' perspective (just as well, probably) so it's not that major a problem. As for Aragorn and Boromir, *sigh*...but you can't travel months, let alone years, in the wilderness and not have things like that happen to you, it's the natural order of things. I imagine you'd get used to it sooner rather than later, especially if everyone around you was the same.<p>[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Birdland]

Tirned - In Crichton's book, Ibn Fadlan refers to the Vikings as "Scandinavians", though the boundries seem to be a little blurry when it comes to the "Northmen" <P>Due to Dimaldaeon's earlier post, I was curious about the difference between England's Germanic Saxons and the Scandinavian Vikings. Apparently there was very little difference. They shared a common language and pre-Christian religious beliefs. I found this interesting web site that deals with the commonality of the language and it's influence on English place names. <A HREF="http://www.regia.org/languag.htm" TARGET=_blank>Language of Anglo-Saxons and Vikings</A><P>Another topic that Ibn Fadlan deals with in the book, (but was not included in the movie) is the subject of dwarves. Yes. There were actual dwarves in the Northmen's society, though they have a very "mannish" origin. Ibn Fadlan writes that when a woman gave birth to a dwarf, it was considered a very fortunate event. These Dwarves had their own, separate society, and were regarded as being very wise, and having the powers of foretelling. The warriors in the book go to the dwarves for advise on how to defeat their enemy, and accept without question the instructions of the head dwarf. (Ibn Fadlan accepts this concept, because in Muslim society Dwarves were also considered to be very wise, which was why dwarves were favored in the courts of Kings.)<P>Oh, and one of the gifts that the dwarves give to the warriors to help them defeat their enemy? - Rope. <P>OK, this is getting to be less and less a "movie" thread, and more a "book" thread, but I'm finding this to be very facinating, none the less.

[Birdland]

Kalimac - Don't you find it interesting that the desert Muslims, where water might be considered a very precious commodity, regarded bathing as essential. But that the Northmen, who lived in a country where water was plentiful, (sometimes TOO plentiful) would share one wash bowl among twelve men?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Apparently there was very little difference. They shared a common language and pre-Christian religious beliefs.

I cannot stress strongly enough that this is not the case. Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse are members of the same group of languages; they have the same roots, but they are not the same language; and to what extent the speakers of the Norse dialects and the Anglo-Saxons could understand one another is still a matter of debate in historical circles.

As for beliefs, the early Anglo-Saxons do bear more than a passing resemblance to the Vikings, but our records of their beliefs are incomplete, and the Anglo-Saxon English who first encountered the Vikings, and those living around the time that Beowulf was written were not these early piratical pagans, but Christians with, by the standards of the time, a sophisticated and literate society. To these people, the Vikings were completely alien: a rapacious, merciless and godless scourge that could only have been a punishment from God. Incidentally I'd be curious to see the source for that Anglo-Saxon complaint about washing. Most amusing and no doubt originating from around the time of Athelstan's reconquest of the Danelaw.

On the subject of Ibn Fadlan's references, we can tell that this man was not talking about Anglo-Saxons simply because they were not the great traders and explorers that the Vikings became. The Vikings were the European seafarers par excellence, raiding, exploring and trading farther afield than any of their neighbours. This is also probably where this economy with water evolved: there may be a lot of it in Denmark, but there certainly isn't on board ship (washing in sea water makes for such discomfort that only a society as obsessive about cleanliness as our own would consider it).

As for the dissimilarity with Tolkien's Anglians, the Rohirrim, it's not a common feature of the epic that it should dwell on such mundanities as the personal hygiene of its protagonists. Beowulf, for example, makes no mention of its hero's bathing habits; The Nibelungenlied glosses over such matters as though they were of little or no importance; and so too does The Lord of the Rings, although I can't see much of an opportunity for a quick bath amongst the arguably weightier matters to which characters in epics must invariably attend. Cleanliness, it would appear, is not so closely linked to nobility of spirit as some people would have us believe.

[Edit: ps I loved The 13th Warrior. You can't help but admire those Norsemen.][ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[Bêthberry]

I think you are on to something, <B>Squatter</B>, although a quick search has so far frustrated my efforts to find the source I was thinking of in support of your point.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Cleanliness, it would appear, is not so closely linked to nobility of spirit as some people would have us believe.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Cleanliness was closely associated with ritual, for it involved not just physical cleanliness but spiritual (moral) as well. In fact, in early centuries, too close attention to physical attributes would have been regarded as manifestation of a lack of attention to spiritual cleanliness, a worship of materialism in fact. It wasn't slovenliness, but a mortification of the body for spiritual gain. Not a modern concept. <P>"Cleanliness is next to godliness" is a recent invention.<P>Bethberry

[Dimaldaeon]

I noticed the similarities between Anglo-Saxons and Vikings while reading some of Terry Deary's books (great books , very funny) so I must apologise for the earlier post. Did anyone notice that even though the Vikings were skilled smiths they carried around great big blunt iron bars of swords in the film. Also did anyone notice that their armour was a little off. One of them had a Roman gladiators helm while another had a helm that looked like a cross between a 14th century English and 16th century Spanish one.

[Helkasir]

13th warrior was a grwat movie. It really excelled in the sword fights. That's the only thing in LOTR; they need more of hte blade action, not just the hack/slash of Braveheart.

[Tirned Tinnu]

WOW. Fantastic info abounds in this thread! <BR>I shall add something not truly related to Vikings or Norsemen, but might be added as a possibility. <BR>In studying the early Celtic society I have found references to bathing habits: <BR>They bathed usually once a day, after the evening meal, used soap, studiously cleaned under the nails, and combed out their hair carefully. <BR>Washing the hands and face in the morning with clean water was essential, as well as combing the hair and braiding it. <BR>Nails were cleaned regularly, and it was a sign of good breeding to have them looking trimmed and neat. Certainly the Vikings had similar bathing habits. I myself do the same today- the only difference is chlorinated flourinated softened water - which also might be a reason not to bath terribly often, hard water is HARD on the skin. Couple that with lye-soap, ouch! Moisterizers such as oil and lanolin would have been applied with regularity to battle the drying effects of such water. <P>I have also found references to traditions of rising early enough to wash one's face with the morning dew - this was supposed to make a woman's face more beautiful, and youthful. It's also rather handy! I can see myself rising yawning from my tent as I have done countless times in the past and using nice clean dew from the very tips of the green grass to wake up with a jolt. It firms the skin, let me tell you! (Just make sure you don't dip into the dew too forcefully, or you'll be washing with worm droppings...*chuckle* <P>I think that in Tolkien's world both Elves and Men would have learned the virtues of regular bathing, and the use of plants as wormers and de-fleaing powders. Lice mught not be a problem if the same were applied. Take for instance the American Indian, who you did not see trotting around flea-ridden or lice-ridden. They knew how to treat these problems quite quickly and efficiently with plant extracts. (If not a bit forcfully - some of their concoctions work too well, and must be applied with care.) Additionally, all the de-fleaing stuff we use today comes from plant extracts. <P>The combs of the ancient Celts and Vikings were fine and ready to d-lice or de-flea at a moments notice. Certainly if you care for yourself once a day the problem of battling bugs would not be terribly annoying thing. <BR>Worse off were those having to battle bed-bugs... now that would tick me off. But that too can be handled by using fresh bedding. <BR>has anyone slept on a horsehair mattress? It seems a bit stiff at first, but darn, your back feels great after a snooze on one. I think the Rohanish would have used them!

[Lady_Báin]

To get even more of track <P>well to clear it up once and for all (maybe) the "northmen" in the movie (i say in the movie i don't know about the book) cried "Ódinn" when they came close to land. Ódinn was the head of the viking god family so i think they were viking but history is full of unsureties (spl?) and guesswork we can't really be sure. And regarding the armor and such they did trade and pillage all over the european continent thanks to their long boats that could sail in water with 1 meter depth and could therefore go by river in to the little nooks and cranies at will.<P><BR>BUT to be sure i don't think the Rohirrim washed in each others loogies EEEEWWWW . They probably had bathing habits similar to the Men of Gondor like when they would wash before and (i think) after a meal, and the like but imagine they had to go for months at a time poor things.<P>wow one could write a very comprehensive essay comparing Anglo-saxons and Vkings from this thread I love it<P>oh yeah 13th warrior rules!<p>[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Lady_Báin ]

[Tirned Tinnu]

And to get even more off track... I thought you might want to see this valuable site for the increadible proof of Vikings not being ordinary men....<BR><A HREF="http://mushroom.furious-angels.co.uk/vducks.jpg" TARGET=_blank>further proof</A><BR>*Tinnu ducks* <BR> <p>[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[Birdland]

"Save us, O God, from the fury of the Northducks!"

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Very curious that I should happen to stumble upon this thread today of all days. <P>Just returned from sharing a campfire and a community cooking pot with a local living history group portraying the life of the French voyageurs from the fur trade era. And let me tell you ... when you eat in the great outdoors, the best thing about sharing germs is knowing that you're sharing them among friends.<P>Split pea soup was keeping warm over an open fire this afternoon, when the lady who'd been tending the pot the longest remarked that a fly had just sampled some of our supper, and alas, this after someone had knocked dirt into the kettle. No big deal. <P>Then, the tent came crashing down in a heavy gust of wind and would have plunged into the soup and fire had I not been sitting in the way. After the lady moved the kettle and I untangled myself from canvas, rope and pole, I noticed that there were now ashes sprinkled on top of the soup. But hey, ashes add character, right?<P>Next, the chef who'd originally brewed up the split pea concoction with all kinds of fancy ingredients like nutmeg and cinnamon, blueberries, onions, oregano, parsley, salt and pepper disembarked from the canoe and joined us ashore. First thing he did was stuff his face with nacho chips. Wouldn't you know it, he then stood directly over the kettle, talking with his mouth full and spraying nacho chip crumbs around. He then lit a cigarette from the fire and stood over the kettle smoking and talking, stray smoking-ashes free to join the fire-ashes in the soup.<P>And what was the good voyageur chef talking about? Why, how two weeks before a dog had come over and licked some soup from the upper edges of a second kettle laying nearby. And how he'd just shrugged, tossed in more water, and served the soup to people who were none the wiser. He then explained how he'd left the kettle sit outside with leftover soup caked on for thirteen days and had only just cleaned it the night before, so it's a good thing kettles clean up real nice.<P>Some things, methinks, seem to cross the borders of time and nationality, if you leave the confines of your comfortable Shire and live anything close to an adventurous life.<P>BTW ... Today's was the best split pea soup I've eaten all season. <P>Gandalf the Grey<p>[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[Birdland]

Well, Gandalf, my dear ol' mom always said "you have to eat a peck of dirt before you die."<P>Mom was weird.

[Helkasir]

Lot's of people died at early ages, too.

[Evenstar1]

Wow, Gandalf, sounds like you had the "Viking snot" and then some...! Flavor, huh?<P>I must admit that this has been, at times, a rather difficult thread for me, albeit a fascinating one. As a mom, I am constantly washing my hands and disinfecting all of the surfaces in my house. (And I do mean "all:" antibacterial hand wash, surface cleaner, spray/deodorizer, etc!) And even before I ever became a mom, my idea of "roughing it" was having to spend a night at a Holiday Inn. I don't mention this to be snobbish, but rather to demonstrate my own point of view (and perhaps the source of my fascination) with this thread. Does anyone else feel the same way?

[Helkasir]

nope. Sorry. Not really. As a son, I have to say that moms just won't leave you alone. Yes I realize that it's 11:15, and my mom has this skewed perception that you go to bed on saturday nights when you're 15. Asa mother, don't tell you're kid to go to be when he's 15.

[lindil]

hey are all the threads in the Movies forum this good? If so I promise to come and peek more often, if not........<P>Great story Gandalf!<BR>and well told as well.<P>Thanks for all of the historical and familial info.