Gollum's Exit From Moria

[Iulbahar]

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If Gollum was following the Fellowship of the Ring when they passed through Moria and was then spotted in a tree in Lorien, how did he escape from Moria? He could not have crossed the bridge because Gandalf broke it during his fight with the Balrog. Any ideas?

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[Gilthalion]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

Cleverly seeing trouble on the way, Gollum decided to get out himself while the getting was good, and follow them when they left.

It worked!

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

I am sure that in Moria there are many secret and not so secret ways to get to the same source... Gollum, always clever and a true sneak, found another less well know way to exit on the East side of Moria...

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[Telchar]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

Well - we dont know when he exited Moria, it could have been A: before the company reached the bridge or B after the bridge was destroyed - I dont think its unlikely that he followed the orcs out - and that speed ahead of them because they delayed due to the sunlight.

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[Hunter Two One]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

on a first note, gollum did not follow the fellowship into Moria. he was already there, hiding from the nazgul.

as far as getting out, the previous two posts mention some possibilities. the west gate is not the only exit. i think in one of Tolkien's letters, it mentioned that gollum did not know how to operate the main doors. so it is likely that he both went in and out through another opening.

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[Mithadan]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

On a related note, in the archives there is an extended debate about the East Gate called (I believe) the Bridge at Khazad Dum which discusses whether the bridge could reasonably support commerce and the needs of a dwarven city. In this thread, it is theorized that there must have been a &quot;servant's entrance&quot; and other ways of entering and leaving Moria. This was a hotly debated topic and touches upon Gollum's departure from Moria. Feel free to reactivate the thread if you wish by posting a reply. Or you can &quot;import&quot; ideas into this thread.

Welcome to the Barrow Downs Hunter!

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 9/5/01 6:54:04 am

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

Gollum found and then followed the Company in Moria. But when the orcs appeared, it is most likely that he ran toward the East gate immediately, hoping to get out alive. Thus, he exited Moria before the fight on the Bridge.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Hunter Two One]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

thanks for the welcome, mithadan ... <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

you're only half-right rkittle ... Tolkien himself said (in his letters, i'll find out which one) that gollum was already there in Moria as he was hiding from the nazgul. it was simply his good fortune that the fellowship also passed through.

it is also unlikely that he went out through the east gate because it would have taken him too long to go the long way around and reach Lorien at the time that the fellowship was there (remember that he attempted to approach Frodo while he was sleeping in Lothlorien?). besides, Tolkien also mentioned (in the same letter, i think) that gollum did not know how to operate the doors ... <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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[Hunter Two One]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

ok i found the text but it's not in the letters (sorry, my mistake). it's in Unfinished Tales (the section on the Hunt for the Ring):

What then happened to gollum cannot of course be known for certain. he was pecularily fitted to survive in such straits, tough at the cost of great misery but he was in great peril of disovery by the servants of sauron that lurked in moria !! especially since such bare necessity of food as he must have he could only feed by theiving dangerously. no doubt he had intended to use moria simply as a secret passage westward his purpose being to find shire himself as quickly as he could but he became lost and it was a very long time before he found his way about. It thus seems probable that he had not long made his way towards the west gate when the nine walkers arived. He knew nothing of course about the action of the doors. for him they would seem huge and immovable; and though they had no lock or bar and opened outwards to a thrust he did not discover that. In any case he was now far away from any source of food, for the orcs were mostly in the east end of moria and was become weak and desperate, so that even if he had known all about the doors he still could not have thrust them open.

He had indeed in his terror of the Nazgul dared to hide in Moria.


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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

The east gate is the same gate the Company used to esacpe Moria, so Golllum would not have had to 'go around' anything that the Company didn't. Remember, the east gate was the Lothlorien side.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Hunter Two One]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

oops, my mistake! i was referring to the west gate <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

but nevertheless, Unfinished Tales eliminates gollum's use of any of the two gates (east and west) ...

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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

I don't agree with that. How'd he get in or out at all if he didn't use either gate?!

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[Mithadan]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

He got out on the East side somehow, whether before or after the Company. I doubt he exited before the Company. He would have feared that the Orcs would overcome the Company and would have lurked about, seeking an opportunity to seize the Ring if the Company were seized or slain.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

But unless he preceded the Company to the east gate, his only exit would have been an air-shaft or a second east door * unless * he waited until the orcs had rebridged the chasm. But in that case, he would have to have done an amazing job of running and tracking to find the Company in the forest *before* the orcs arrived.

It seems more likely that once Gollum realized the orcs had lost the Company, that they were probably headed for the east gate. He would then have run ahead hoping to cut them off. But the Nine ran into trouble before they could reach the gate, and as they passed him by, now only eight, he shrank from their wrath in terror (of them and the sunlight). Night time is much better for sneaking.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Mithadan]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

That's right! He used the second east door and exited after the Company had passed! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Hunter Two One]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

second east door? there must've been more than just the dwarven doors to get into or out of Moria. Gollum didn't know how to use the doors. the &quot;ventilation shafts&quot; would've been a more feasible idea ...

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[Mithadan]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

Nice thought Hunter. I never considered the ventilation shafts as a method of egress. BTW, I think that the books say that Gollum did not know how to open the West Gate but is silent on the East.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

I'm fairly certain that there weren't any eastern doors at the time of the Company's escape, as they were destroyed in the wars with the Orcs centuries earlier. I'll look into this a little more, but here's a quote I remember from a previous melee from HoME XII:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But the East Gates, which perished in the war against the Orks, had opened upon the wide world, and were less friendly. <hr></blockquote>Gollum would have had no trouble working these gates, as there were none.

More points to make later...

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[Mithadan]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

That would make sense. The gates were destroyed in the &quot;Goblin&quot; Wars by the Dwarven army. Good thing too. If the gates remained, the orcs could have shut them preventing the company from leaving.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Hunter Two One]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

you're probably right. but nevertheless, i think that Tolkien wanted to emphasize that Gollum always shunned the &quot;front doors&quot;, so to speak, so he would've found other ways into and out of Moria, much like he discovered the alternate route to Barad-dur through Shelob's lair...

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[Telchar]

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Re: Gollum's Exit From Moria

Lets try to analyse:

Why were Gollum in Moria?
For two reasons:
A: Hiding from the Nazgul.
B: Trying to find a passage west, searching for the Shire.

What were Gollums problems (Several)
A: He had to be very carefull not to get caught by the servants of Sauron (orcs in Moria)
B: He was, at first at least, lost and didn't know how to get out
C: He was running out of strength, because he didn't have any food, which was very hard to come by because of problem A
D: He could not get out of the West gate (if he ever got to them) - not because he couldn't &quot;work&quot; (figure them out) them - but because he didn't have the strength to work them because of Problem C

Actually it's uncertain if he ever got to the West Gate. He was probably on his way west when the Nine Walkers arrived in Moria, which actually saved him.

For these reasons I think it is unlikely that Gollum &quot;stroled around&quot; in the lowers levels of the East halls and explored different way to get in and out.

Im my opinion, Gollum started tracking and following the Company somewhere on the East/West road through Moria. He was close to the orcs when they attacked the chamber or Mazabul, after that he could no longer follow the company, so he chose to follow the pursuers (orcs). This meant that he too was on the wrong side of the fire, and had to cross the same way as the orcs. After the Companys escape, he followed the orcs out, but unlike them he endured the daylight, and followed the Company closely.

Cheers
<img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> Telchar


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