Both no and yes - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalaith · 02-02-2004, 05:25 AM

One of the chief characteristics of the elves we meet in Lord of the Rings is their passivity, their reluctance to suggest solutions to others.
’Go not to the Elves for counsel, for
they will say both no and yes.’ says Frodo to Gildor.
Galadriel tells the Fellowship: "I will not
give you counsel, saying do this, or do that."
It must have been rather frustrating for the other Free Peoples. The elves were eldest and wisest of them, and have more experience fighting Sauron and even Morgoth than anyone else. So surely a bit of advice might be welcome?
Was it ever thus? Were elves like this since Cuivienen? Or is it a symptom of their fading?
Or perhaps - have long ages of struggle against Morgoth and Sauron, spirits who were determined to subjugate all to their wills, driven the elves to take a position of extreme 'laissez faire' - that they have an aversion to 'advice' which, however mild and well-meaning, is after all an attempt to persuade others to follow your arguments and recommendations.

02-02-2004, 06:42 AM

Actually this characteristic of the elves is something that I can really relate to. I was raised by a lawyer and have spent most of my life around lawyers, and I have always said that they can't give you a yes or no answer. I think it is a certain way they look at things, and their habit of overthinking an issue. It makes it very easy for me to understand the elven reluctance to give definitive answers.

I believe the elves do give advice, however, they want to be sure that it is understood no advice is "good". They have been involved in these matters for ages. Things can go astray (for good or ill) especially when you are talking about a long-term goal. Don't stick your hand in the fire is good advice for the short-term. For a quest of many months through dangerous lands among people of varying degrees of loyalty and knowledge it is very difficult to forsee what might be good advice. I think the elves also understand that their words carry a lot of weight, and they don't wish to be misconstrued or guide someone in the wrong direction. I forget who said it, but even the wise cannot forsee all ends.

This isn't as clearly thought through as I would like, but I haven't had my coffee.

Selmo · 02-02-2004, 09:35 AM

"Go not to the Elves for counsel, for
they will get it wrong every time" might have been a better quote for Frodo to have given.

The Elves have great knowledge and their art seems more like magic to mortals but they show little wisdom. Their history is one long story of disaster after disaster. Even their few successes, such as the victory of Last Alliance, are won at great cost.

Go to the Elves for counsel?
You'd be better of going to the Trolls.

drigel · 02-02-2004, 11:07 AM

Its all a matter of perspective. After a few thousand years, I would think I would loose touch with a mortals point of view too. Advice for this and that would be from an Elves world view. Its not like they were all wise and sage. They were experienced. Council from them could be terrible in the short term - but after 200-300 years they would say "See? I was right - I told you so!"
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Firefoot · 02-02-2004, 03:49 PM

I think that they wouldn't give advice because before they did so they wanted to make sure it was "good" advice and the person they gave it to would not end up in a bad spot. An advantage to talking to someone that won't give advice is it helps you see all the options without feeling swayed one way or the other.

Sindar, Gandalf said, "Even the wise cannot see all ends."

camomile · 02-02-2004, 03:56 PM

one thing that seems to have been forgotten is that the elves where children of the first age of midle earth. by the(second) war of the ring they knew that theyr time on midle earth was nearing an end, or at least they suspected. it was the turne of the other free people to act not the elfes.

Linnahiril Tinnufinwen · 02-02-2004, 04:56 PM

Yes, I agree with Camomile. The Elves, especially in the books, were almost adamant about not getting involved with the troubles of Men.

Roa_Aoife · 02-02-2004, 07:55 PM

I agree partially with Selmo. The in Middle-Earth were there becuase of their mistakes. A lot of the whole issue with the One ring and all the other rings was becuase of the elven smiths. The Sylvan elves were there becuase when all the other elves went to the Undying lands, their king got lost. The other elves were there becuase one of them went crazy and led his people on a mad chase back to Middle-earth over some gems. So they don't have a great track record. They've also had bad relations with Men in the past, and Dwarves for that matter. So they are ditrustful. If mistakes are the best way to learn, then it's no wonder they're the wisest of all.

Lobelia · 02-02-2004, 08:29 PM

Very true, Roa_Aoife - they really don't have a great track record; if they were as wise as they're supposed to be, ME would be in trouble, because their population would be a lot bigger - ever noticed how they kill each other off? But there's another factor: they're leaving ME. They know it. Those left behind are going to have to handle everything themselves and not rely on the wisdom of the "big brothers and sisters". And if the Elves got it wrong, they wouldn't be the ones who would suffer! So it's understandable that they'd be careful with advice.

Roa_Aoife · 02-02-2004, 10:25 PM

Another point to be made has a tie in with the Foresight_of_the_Ainur thread. The Elves forsee a possible event, something that will happen if things remain on the same course. The course is changeable by those not bound by fate, that is Men. But if the Elves tell Men what they have forseen, then Men might come to believe that that is the only possible future and then not do anything to change it. A good example would be Denethor and the palantir.

Finwe · 02-02-2004, 10:29 PM

Also, they couldn't go around flinging advice and counsel right and left because:

Some people didn't listen to the Elves any more *coughcoughDenethorcoughcough*
The Men of Middle-earth had to think through and fight their own battles. If the Elves were always there with advice, how would they learn how to think through problems of their own?

The Elves realized that they couldn't mollycoddle Men and do all their thinking for them. The Valar had done that to a degree in Valinor, and look what resulted, Rebellions, Kinslayings, and Sunderings. The Elves who remained in Middle-earth remembered what had happened, and vowed that it would never happen again. Say if the Elves did mollycoddle Men, where would the latter go if they wanted to rebel? Would they go East and ally themselves with Sauron's allies? That would be disastrous.

02-02-2004, 05:25 AM	#1
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Both no and yes One of the chief characteristics of the elves we meet in Lord of the Rings is their passivity, their reluctance to suggest solutions to others. ’Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.’ says Frodo to Gildor. Galadriel tells the Fellowship: "I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that." It must have been rather frustrating for the other Free Peoples. The elves were eldest and wisest of them, and have more experience fighting Sauron and even Morgoth than anyone else. So surely a bit of advice might be welcome? Was it ever thus? Were elves like this since Cuivienen? Or is it a symptom of their fading? Or perhaps - have long ages of struggle against Morgoth and Sauron, spirits who were determined to subjugate all to their wills, driven the elves to take a position of extreme 'laissez faire' - that they have an aversion to 'advice' which, however mild and well-meaning, is after all an attempt to persuade others to follow your arguments and recommendations. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

02-02-2004, 03:56 PM	#6
camomile Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Athens Ga U.S.A Posts: 11	one thing that seems to have been forgotten is that the elves where children of the first age of midle earth. by the(second) war of the ring they knew that theyr time on midle earth was nearing an end, or at least they suspected. it was the turne of the other free people to act not the elfes. __________________ not all that is gold does glitter, not all those who wander are lost

02-02-2004, 04:56 PM	#7
Linnahiril Tinnufinwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: California Posts: 77	Yes, I agree with Camomile. The Elves, especially in the books, were almost adamant about not getting involved with the troubles of Men. __________________ The world is a great book, of which they who never stir from home read only a page

02-02-2004, 07:55 PM	#8
Roa_Aoife Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it. Posts: 1,696	I agree partially with Selmo. The in Middle-Earth were there becuase of their mistakes. A lot of the whole issue with the One ring and all the other rings was becuase of the elven smiths. The Sylvan elves were there becuase when all the other elves went to the Undying lands, their king got lost. The other elves were there becuase one of them went crazy and led his people on a mad chase back to Middle-earth over some gems. So they don't have a great track record. They've also had bad relations with Men in the past, and Dwarves for that matter. So they are ditrustful. If mistakes are the best way to learn, then it's no wonder they're the wisest of all. __________________ We can't all be Roas* when it comes to analysing...* -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen

02-02-2004, 10:25 PM	#10
Roa_Aoife Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it. Posts: 1,696	Another point to be made has a tie in with the Foresight_of_the_Ainur thread. The Elves forsee a possible event, something that will happen if things remain on the same course. The course is changeable by those not bound by fate, that is Men. But if the Elves tell Men what they have forseen, then Men might come to believe that that is the only possible future and then not do anything to change it. A good example would be Denethor and the palantir. __________________ We can't all be Roas* when it comes to analysing...* -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen

02-02-2004, 06:42 AM	#2
Sindar Guest Posts: n/a	Actually this characteristic of the elves is something that I can really relate to. I was raised by a lawyer and have spent most of my life around lawyers, and I have always said that they can't give you a yes or no answer. I think it is a certain way they look at things, and their habit of overthinking an issue. It makes it very easy for me to understand the elven reluctance to give definitive answers. I believe the elves do give advice, however, they want to be sure that it is understood no advice is "good". They have been involved in these matters for ages. Things can go astray (for good or ill) especially when you are talking about a long-term goal. Don't stick your hand in the fire is good advice for the short-term. For a quest of many months through dangerous lands among people of varying degrees of loyalty and knowledge it is very difficult to forsee what might be good advice. I think the elves also understand that their words carry a lot of weight, and they don't wish to be misconstrued or guide someone in the wrong direction. I forget who said it, but even the wise cannot forsee all ends. This isn't as clearly thought through as I would like, but I haven't had my coffee.

02-02-2004, 09:35 AM	#3
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	"Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will get it wrong every time" might have been a better quote for Frodo to have given. The Elves have great knowledge and their art seems more like magic to mortals but they show little wisdom. Their history is one long story of disaster after disaster. Even their few successes, such as the victory of Last Alliance, are won at great cost. Go to the Elves for counsel? You'd be better of going to the Trolls.

02-02-2004, 11:07 AM	#4
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	Its all a matter of perspective. After a few thousand years, I would think I would loose touch with a mortals point of view too. Advice for this and that would be from an Elves world view. Its not like they were all wise and sage. They were experienced. Council from them could be terrible in the short term - but after 200-300 years they would say "See? I was right - I told you so!" [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

02-02-2004, 03:49 PM	#5
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	I think that they wouldn't give advice because before they did so they wanted to make sure it was "good" advice and the person they gave it to would not end up in a bad spot. An advantage to talking to someone that won't give advice is it helps you see all the options without feeling swayed one way or the other. Sindar, Gandalf said, "Even the wise cannot see all ends."

02-02-2004, 08:29 PM	#9
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	Very true, Roa_Aoife - they really don't have a great track record; if they were as wise as they're supposed to be, ME would be in trouble, because their population would be a lot bigger - ever noticed how they kill each other off? But there's another factor: they're leaving ME. They know it. Those left behind are going to have to handle everything themselves and not rely on the wisdom of the "big brothers and sisters". And if the Elves got it wrong, they wouldn't be the ones who would suffer! So it's understandable that they'd be careful with advice.

02-02-2004, 10:29 PM	#11
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Also, they couldn't go around flinging advice and counsel right and left because: Some people didn't listen to the Elves any more coughcoughDenethorcoughcough The Men of Middle-earth had to think through and fight their own battles. If the Elves were always there with advice, how would they learn how to think through problems of their own? The Elves realized that they couldn't mollycoddle Men and do all their thinking for them. The Valar had done that to a degree in Valinor, and look what resulted, Rebellions, Kinslayings, and Sunderings. The Elves who remained in Middle-earth remembered what had happened, and vowed that it would never happen again. Say if the Elves did mollycoddle Men, where would the latter go if they wanted to rebel? Would they go East and ally themselves with Sauron's allies? That would be disastrous. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.