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Old 04-08-2003, 04:29 PM   #1
The Saucepan Man
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From The Tower of Cirith Ungol:

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They seemed to be carved out of huge blocks of stone, immovable, and yet they were aware: some dreadful spirit of evil vigilence abode in them.
This suggests that they were, in physical form, statues, but that they were imbued with some kind of spirit. And since the spirits inside them are said to have been evil, it seems likely that they (the spirits) were placed there by Sauron, rather than by the Men of Gondor who built the Tower.

What is not clear is what the spirits within the statues were. Quite possibly, they were not "living" spirits at all, but a form of enchantment - an artificially created and unliving awareness (a sort of ME motion sensor [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). Alternatively they may have been living spirits, possibly of some lesser form of Maiar, removed from their bodies and trapped within the stone. Personally, however, I think that there is a lot to be said for Meoshi's theory that Sauron imbued with them with a small part of his own will, in the same way that he invested a (greater) part of his will in the One Ring.
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Old 03-31-2007, 02:06 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
From The Tower of Cirith Ungol:This suggests that they were, in physical form, statues, but that they were imbued with some kind of spirit. And since the spirits inside them are said to have been evil, it seems likely that they (the spirits) were placed there by Sauron, rather than by the Men of Gondor who built the Tower.

You have a point about that. but i have another theory. what if Sauron tainted the spirits of the blue wizards and used their spirits in the watchers?
so little is known of the blue wizards, it could be possible
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Old 04-01-2007, 04:38 AM   #3
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Pipe Blue Watchers?

Given the shortage of information about the fates of the Ithryn Luin, that is certainly a possibility; but I think it unlikely. Firstly, Tolkien does offer his own speculations about the fates of the Blue Wizards in Letter 211 (also cited in Unfinished Tales):

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I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, although doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

Letter #211, to Rhona Beare, 14 October, 1958. Letters p.280. cf. Unfinished Tales, The Istari, endnote 3 (p.518)
Although this is a very vague and uncertain declaration, it seems inconsistent with the idea that Alatar and Pallando were imprisoned in a pair of statues. After all, the Silent Watchers would be unable to start any cults or traditions at all, since they seem unable to communicate except in wails and screams. Personally I think that if Sauron had suborned two of the Istari to his service he would have more important work for them than guarding the tower of Cirith Ungol. They would have been able to cause chaos among the forces of the West had they appeared and begun to contradict Gandalf's messages and advice.

Tolkien says of the Silent Watchers:

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They seemed to be carved out of huge blocks of stone, immovable, and yet they were aware: some dreadful spirit of evil vigilance abode in them. They knew an enemy. Visible or invisible none could pass unheeded.

The Lord of the Rings, VI, 1, The Tower of Cirith Ungol, p.902
Sam passes their vigilance twice: once to get into the tower and once to take Frodo out.

Quote:
[Sam] sprang past them; but even as he did so, thrusting the phial back into his bosom, he was aware, as plainly as if a bar of steel had snapped to behind him, that their vigilance was renewed. And from those evil heads there came a high shrill cry that echoed in the towering walls before him. Far up above, like an answering signal, a harsh bell clanged a single stroke.

Ibid. pp. 902-3.
Quote:
Sam drew out the elven-glass of Galadriel again. As if to do honour to his hardihood, and to grace with splendour his faithful brown hobbit-hand that had done such deeds, the phial blazed forth suddenly, so that all the shadowy court was lit with a dazzling radiance like lightning; but it remained steady and did not pass.
'Gilthoniel, A Elbereth!' Sam cried. For, why he did not know, his thought sprang back suddenly to the Elves in the Shire, and the song that drove away the Black Rider in the trees.

'Aiya elenion ancalima!' cried Frodo once again behind him.

The will of the Watchers was broken with a suddenness like the snapping of a cord, and Frodo and Sam stumbled forward... There was a crack. The keystone of the arch crashed almost on their heels, and the wall above crumbled, and fell in ruin... A bell clanged; and from the Watchers there went up a high and dreadful wail. Far up above in the darkness it was answered. Out of the black sky there came dropping like a bolt a winged shape, rending the clouds with a ghastly shriek.

Ibid, p.915.
Two things occur to me on reading these passages: firstly, like Shelob, the Watchers can be cowed by the use of Galadriel's phial, and they also seem to be susceptible to the name of Elbereth as are the Ringwraiths. Secondly, Tolkien refers to their will and spirit in the singular, making them into a single entity. This suggests to me that the most likely explanation for them is that Sauron has invested them with some measure of his own malice and power, just as he did with the One Ring. The other, rather less likely, alternative, if these things must be explained, is that the spirit of a Man or Elf has been corrupted and imprisoned in the statues and the gate. I have a feeling that two Maiar acting in concert would just be too powerful for two hobbits to overcome, let alone one on his own.

That being said, though, I think that the Watchers are more effective in their narrative context for their inscrutability. The fact of their malicious will is enough for me: I don't need to know how it got there, and the feeling of the unknown that they evoke adds to their menace. That may even be why Tolkien left them unexplained.
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Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 04-01-2007 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 04-01-2007, 07:35 AM   #4
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For me the imagery doesn't fit with the idea that these were a Numenorean device. When Sam passes through, Tolkien's language throughout is consistent with forcing a barrier, not using a key; especially since one immediate consequence is that an alarm goes off! As mentioned above, the name of Elbereth, combined with Earendil's light, somehow cows or suppresses evil wills, as with the Witch-king and Shelob.

I don't see the parallels with Orthanc, which may be odd or even forbidding, but which Tolkien never describes as 'hideous', nor does he ascribe 'malice' to anything not of Sauronian origin.
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Old 04-01-2007, 10:51 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Given the shortage of information about the fates of the Ithryn Luin, that is certainly a possibility; but I think it unlikely. Firstly, Tolkien does offer his own speculations about the fates of the Blue Wizards in Letter 211 (also cited in Unfinished Tales):

yes, but did not sauron take control of those lands? and maybe only one was caught. perhaps the other may have been tainted and placed in the watchers. and look at it this way. as you have said, "Sauron would have put them to better use than guardians of Cirith Ungol". if my theory is correct, perhaps they were like the seven dwarves. weak enough to taint, but too strong to take control of.
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Old 04-01-2007, 01:44 PM   #6
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Sting But there were at least four Watchers!

I think, however, that there were more than two Silent Watchers - I suppose at least two more were in Minas Morgul:
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"Bad business," said Gorbag. "See here - our Silent Watchers were uneasy more than two days ago."
As we know, Gorbag was leader in Minas Morgul. These are not Shagrat's Silent Watchers from Cirith Ungol we are speaking about here.
So if the Blue Wizards were to become Silent Watchers (which I find unlikely, supported even by the evidence stated in posts above), we would need two more unknown Wizards to occupy the posts in Minas Morgul.

I am more inclined to think about the "spirits", maybe even as hwaim said even trapped spirits of someone... but if you gave me the choice, I'd most likely side with Squatter:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
That being said, though, I think that the Watchers are more effective in their narrative context for their inscrutability. The fact of their malicious will is enough for me: I don't need to know how it got there, and the feeling of the unknown that they evoke adds to their menace. That may even be why Tolkien left them unexplained.
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:59 AM   #7
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Blue wizards? If Sauron had somehow managed to trap Alatar's and Pallando's spirits, would he use them to guard the tower? Surely it was an important border place, but with Shelob already there, it feels like a huge waste of resources.

In general, I think the watchers were originally "ordinary" watch statues made by Númenóreans of great craft and skills and Sauron then set some evil spirits or some of his own power in them and thus made them "alive".
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Old 04-02-2007, 06:01 AM   #8
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I think the watchers were originally "ordinary" watch statues made by Númenóreans of great craft and skills
Hm, I have trouble picturing the Numenoreans making such sculptures
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Originally Posted by The tower of Cirith Ungol, RotK
Each had three joined bodies, and three heads facing outward, and inward, and across the gateway. The heads had vulture-faces, and on their great knees were laid clawlike hands.
They look as living beings twisted for some purpose - a Machine if I may say so. Such deformations of living creatures could only be, imo, an expression of evil, not one of celebrating life and positive values.
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