Sauron's apperance in RotK *Quotes* - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Only Real Estel · 09-01-2003, 10:43 AM

Ok, it seems like there are still quite a few people in the dark about this (& some that aren't), so I'm going to put a lot of quotes up that I found on the subject. You guys can read them if want to. I've been told once that PJ said Sauron won't appear, but I'm going to have to wait until I see the credibility rating on that one. Here you go: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>NEW Sauron Makes Rare Public Appearance FILMS: Sauron appears in a form other than the Flaming Eye. BOOKS: Sauron does not directly appear, although according to Gollum, he does have a humanoid form. PRO: "The Sauron in the books is sketchy at best, which makes it hard to turn him into a screen villain," says Peter Jackson. "But imagine not really seeing Darth Vader for all three Star Wars films. You just can't do it." CON: This is an invention of the filmmakers and does not represent Tolkien's intent. SUPPORTED BY: Empire Magazine "Hail to the King" 12/2/02 (first report) CREDIBILITY: 4/5<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A 4 of 5 credibility rating is extremly high... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Men of Gondor surround them both and Legolas shouts "Aragorn!" as a warning, then Aragorn with Anduril in hand rushes the Dark Lord who looked like he was in different armor than when we saw him in the prologue. It is not an even fight and Aragorn is nearly knocked to death as the countdown to the destruction of the ring begins. I guess the goal is to make the audience wonder if the ring will be destroyed before Aragorn is smeared all over Mordor! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Alex writes, "Well I saw something that could be a possible spoiler for ROTK. On the FOTR DVD extended edition, I don't remember where but I know that it was on disc 3, there is a two-second clip of what looks like Peter Jackson directing the movements of an actor dressed in Sauron's costume and there is a blue screen behind him. When I first saw this I thought PJ was just filming a scene from the prologue with the battle of the last alliance. But I looked at Sauron who was using a sword, and in the prologue, Sauron wielded a mace. This could be some more supporting evidence of Sauron's apearance in ROTK. Of course it could just be somethiung PJ redid but I just thought you might like.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't know who Alex is, but I'm just throwing out quotes. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Whether or not this makes the final cut or not, we now know for certain that Sauron was FILMED as a physical presence taking part in the events of ROTK. This came in from Dave: "I used to flat with a guy in the NZ army, and when he was in the filming for the big battle in front of the gates of Mordor, Sauron was there fighting. I believe he will appear. I mean there is only so much you can do with a giant eye." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I also don't know who Dave is, but it sounds pretty accurate.We can also use this thread to discuss opinions on this if you want, although it has been done some on other threads. I personally don't really like the idea of Sauron appearing in a physical form, but I can't decide if that's the worse of the 2 evils, or if him fighting Aragorn is. [ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

HCIsland · 09-01-2003, 10:51 AM

I have every faith that these scenes were filmed. Whether they make the final cut remains to be seen.H.C.

Elentári · 09-01-2003, 10:59 AM

Personally I simply cannot imagine Aragorn fighting this Maiar and coming out alive...but naturally I suppose the Ring would be destroyed just as Sauron was about to deal Aragorn his death blow. Or something like that...

The Only Real Estel · 09-01-2003, 12:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Personally I simply cannot imagine Aragorn fighting this Maiar and coming out alive...but naturally I suppose the Ring would be destroyed just as Sauron was about to deal Aragorn his death blow. Or something like that...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, unfortunatly that'd probably be the case. I can't stand it when the bad guys get destroyed at the last second, just before they kill there opponent. Although we can only wait & find out. HC: Ditto. I hope that it won't make the final cut, but I'm afraid it probably will.

Daisy Brambleburr · 09-01-2003, 01:36 PM

I can just picture, after the Pellenor fields, Aragorn and co. riding to the Black gates and instead of meeting the Mouth of Sauron they meet the man himself. Aragorn fights him, as a last resort so as to distract him from Frodo. The scenes switch back and forth from Aragorn getting his butt kicked and to Frodo trying to destroy the Ring. You can imagine the tension (for non book people anyway) as Frodo claims the ring for himself, and Sauron's just about to deliver the fatal blow when.....I read something like that somewhere, and it's said in the first post, but that's how it may come out. It gets rid of the Mouth of Sauron so people aren't confused and they don't have to explain him, and makes the grand finale even grander. I may not totally agree with it, but it'll be totally huge.O, the speculation!!

mollecon · 09-01-2003, 01:53 PM

Somehow, this amuses me! Let's complaint before the fact(s) - we can always find something to complaint about afterwards...The only thing I've heard said about this is that PJ somehow felt that a movie without the chief villain showing up wouldn't work - but he may change his mind, yet.

HCIsland · 09-01-2003, 02:33 PM

There's someone cast as the Mouth of Sauron too, so that is not the explanation.H.C.

Finwe · 09-01-2003, 02:47 PM

Actually, there is a possibility that all of you are mistaken, including the people who wrote that article. Early on, I read an interview with Mark Ferguson (who played Gil-galad) and he said that they had initially filmed quite a few scenes of him fighting wiht Sauron, and getting tossed about pretty badly. They could have filmed that for the prologue, but taken it out later, during the editing process. As for the sword anomaly, who knows, Sauron could have changed weapons.

HCIsland · 09-01-2003, 05:03 PM

I did read an interview with Jackson where he was asked point blank about this (though, for the life of me I can't find it now). He never denied shooting it but said that he had still to work out how he was going to present Sauron (this was last June I believe).H.C.

The Only Real Estel · 09-01-2003, 05:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Actually, there is a possibility that all of you are mistaken, including the people who wrote that article.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, I'd love to be wrong. At any rate, what I was saying was that Sauron was filmed, & that there's a good possibilty that he'll show up. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I did read an interview with Jackson where he was asked point blank about this (though, for the life of me I can't find it now). He never denied shooting it but said that he had still to work out how he was going to present Sauron (this was last June I believe).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you remember if it had a credibility rating or not? That helps a bit...

arianrod · 09-01-2003, 05:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can just picture, after the Pellenor fields, Aragorn and co. riding to the Black gates and instead of meeting the Mouth of Sauron they meet the man himself. Aragorn fights him, as a last resort so as to distract him from Frodo. The scenes switch back and forth from Aragorn getting his butt kicked and to Frodo trying to destroy the Ring. You can imagine the tension (for non book people anyway) as Frodo claims the ring for himself, and Sauron's just about to deliver the fatal blow when.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That sounds very close to how I think it could turn out, Daisy. Sounds very Peter-like to me. On the plus side, it would be much more tense and dramamtic, despite the inconsistancy. I'm also very worried about how such a scene would turn out, but maybe it wouldn't be so terrible? I mean, who knows? PJ's crazy idea may accutually enhance the movie this time....

Silmiel of Imladris · 09-01-2003, 05:43 PM

But wouldn't Sauron still be a giant eyeball without the ring? I thought Sauron needed it to take physical form, at least that is what I got from the book. Are we sure that it is not the mouth of Sauron they are talking about and they just mistook him for Sauron because that seems more logical to me.

Horse-Maiden of the Shire · 09-01-2003, 06:34 PM

Well. If Sauron appears in physical form, all I have to say is this: I do NOT want it to happen, and I might get kicked out of the theater if it does.

The Only Real Estel · 09-01-2003, 07:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But wouldn't Sauron still be a giant eyeball without the ring? I thought Sauron needed it to take physical form, at least that is what I got from the book. Are we sure that it is not the mouth of Sauron they are talking about and they just mistook him for Sauron because that seems more logical to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's how it should be, or at least in the books. Nope, unfortunatly I'm sure they didn't film the Mouth instead of Sauron. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well. If Sauron appears in physical form, all I have to say is this: I do NOT want it to happen, and I might get kicked out of the theater if it does.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey, you're probably not alone, although I'll stick around for the end of it of course. But let me know if anything interesting does happen .

HCIsland · 09-01-2003, 07:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But wouldn't Sauron still be a giant eyeball without the ring? I thought Sauron needed it to take physical form, at least that is what I got from the book. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I completely disagree with this. Gollum talks about Sauron having nine fingers. Can an eyeball have nine fingers? Shagrat talks about the possibility of Sauron coming to Cirith Ungol himself. Can an eyeball do that? I think there is enough evidence in the book to give Sauron a physical appearance in the film if Jackson wanted to do that. For me, having extra scenes with Sauron in Barad-dur is no different then the extra scenes that were given to Saruman in Orthanc. <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001972" TARGET=_blank>Here</A> is a relevent thread from the book forum.Fighting Aragorn ... That's a completely different question. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Do you remember if it had a credibility rating or not? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It was a interview with Jackson from a fan magazine that was quoted at OneRing. I don't think credibility is an issue, unless it's mine.H.C.

09-01-2003, 07:33 PM

ok, i'm kind of confused on this, what's wrong with Sauron appearing in physical form? i don't really care either way, but i don't think he will. i just need to be a little more clued in on what's wrong with seeing Sauron in physical form. help me here.

The Only Real Estel · 09-01-2003, 07:38 PM

It's not so much Sauron appearing (which has been filmed, although perhaps not included in RotK), I can deal with that. It's Sauron fighting Aragorn that gets me for reasons I will post tommorow. HC: I don't doubt your credibility, but if the quote rules out something that's been said before, then they'll list it as just a rumour, or something that's unlikely to happen. That's why I was wondering, since they list discountings under credibility.

steve · 09-01-2003, 10:20 PM

I must say this. If I am sitting in the theaters and Sauron walks out of the morannon I will walk out of the theater. that is going TO FAR

dragoneyes · 09-02-2003, 02:30 AM

I'm not sure I'd go as far as walking out, but I'd most certainly sit there muttering to myself.Do you think they's bother explaining how he did it, or just let it be an evil surprise at the end?

The Only Real Estel · 09-02-2003, 12:15 PM

I think they'll probably just have it happen (unless it doesn't make the final cut, which is possible. I don't think I'll walk out either, because as I said before, I don't like the idea of Sauron showing up, but I like the idea of him fighting Aragorn much less. & here are the reasons for that that I promised Blue_Punk_Dragon:*Aragorn wouldn't be able to stand up to more than 2 (if that many) whacks from Sauron.*It'll give it this sort of feeling (quote from a post of Elentari's above): <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Personally I simply cannot imagine Aragorn fighting this Maiar and coming out alive...but naturally I suppose the Ring would be destroyed just as Sauron was about to deal Aragorn his death blow. Or something like that... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That is something I (& most people) can't stand watching, but it's also a very real possibility that PJ will make it like that, given his love for dramatics. Of course this is presuming that the scene makes the cut, but this thread is for are ideas, so feel free to presume that it will be in the movie while you post. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I completely disagree with this. Gollum talks about Sauron having nine fingers. Can an eyeball have nine fingers? Shagrat talks about the possibility of Sauron coming to Cirith Ungol himself. Can an eyeball do that? I think there is enough evidence in the book to give Sauron a physical appearance in the film if Jackson wanted to do that. For me, having extra scenes with Sauron in Barad-dur is no different then the extra scenes that were given to Saruman in Orthanc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I do agree with this to a point. I think that Sauron is not just an eyeball ontop of his tower, but rather that is a symbol of him. In the books the 'eye' was simply looking out a window, so it could've belonged to a body. Although PJ sticking the eye in-between the horns might confuse people, I thought it was a nice touch. I do think that Sauron was a spirit (with 9 fingers) that couldn't quite take shape again until he had the Ring. That's why I said that he should still be relegated to 'eyeball status' in the movie. I meant spirit status, but oh well.

Elentári · 09-02-2003, 12:41 PM

Ohh...I had imagined Sauron as simply being an eyeball...but if it belongs to a body...oooh, do you think he could be a Cyclops??? That would be extremely scary!!! I can't wait to see this one...I want to see if it will make me cry. I seem to be unable to cry through watching Hollywood movies...for instance Pearl Harbor. All my friends were bawling their eyes out, and I was like, 'shut up guys, I can't hear it!' (It was the DVD- I wouldn't have had any trouble hearing it in the cinema.) Yeah, heartless, I know...but honestly, two of my friends started crying about half an hour into it, because they knew what would happen!!! The only thing that has ever made me cry was three episodes in a row of the Forsyte Saga (of the last series- it's a British TV drama). Back on topic... I don't think I'll walk out if it happens, I'll probably be glued to my seat with the tension. But hey.

Silmiel of Imladris · 09-02-2003, 07:14 PM

I kind of agree with you two. Sauron must keep part of himself as an eyeball so he can see everything and part of himself in a more solid form. If he can take physical form without the ring I feel that he would be a lot weaker and ghost like, similar to the Nazgul. For Sauron seems quite like a Nazgul because I remember Gandalf saying that you couldn't true kill Sauron but if the ring was destroyed his spirit would be sent to the darkest depths of the earth where it would naw on itself. (I can't remember Gandalf's exact words but I think you get the idea )

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 09-03-2003, 05:47 AM

The Director brought this problem on himself when he had Sauron be vanquished in the prologue of FotR when the Ring was taken from him.

Elentári · 09-03-2003, 08:53 AM

True...but he returned, didn't he. For ages people thought he had perished. Or is that in the film? Argh, I'm getting confused! But PJ is going to have to explain that Sauron gave himself a physical shape of some sort again. Maybe he will look like a Nazgûl with one flaming eye?

HCIsland · 09-03-2003, 09:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The Director brought this problem on himself when he had Sauron be vanquished in the prologue of FotR when the Ring was taken from him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Agreed. It will be interesting, if Sauron does physically appear, whether the film audience will be confused. We'll have to wait and see.In the film at Bag End, Gandalf does say to Frodo, "He [Sauron] cannot yet take physical form." Perhaps implying that it was only a matter of time.It will be interesting to see how all this is dealt with, if it is dealt with at all.H.C.

Finwe · 09-03-2003, 10:42 AM

Now that I think about it, Sauron could have been something in between a Balrog and a Wraith. That way, he could have had fiery eyes, but still not have been able to completely take a physical form.

The Only Real Estel · 09-03-2003, 02:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>if it is dealt with at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> About that real quick: I think it'd be strange if PJ didn't put Sauron in now, & here's why: After talking so much about how you can't really go through a movie without seeing the main bad guy (his Star Wars analogy), why would he now turn around & not have us see him? But if he's already said (in that article you reffered to, HC) that Sauron won't appear, than won't he be concerditing what he already said (Star Wars analogy)? But if Sauron is in it, then PJ will have lied in the article. Hmm, just some random thoughts of mine while I was trying despertly to fall asleep last night at 1 AM.

HCIsland · 09-03-2003, 02:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But if he's already said (in that article you reffered to, HC) that Sauron won't appear <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just to be clear. What I recall PJ saying was that he wasn't sure how he was going to present Sauron, but that he was leaning closer to what was in the books. This was in response to the question of whether Sauron will be fighting Aragorn.I wouldn't take this as a statement that he was leaning towards Sauron not being in the film, just that he was leaning away from away from the Sauron/Aragorn battle. Again, he could have been lieing or he could once again change his mind.I agree with you Estel. If I were a betting man, I would guess Sauron will be a physical presense, but will not fight Aragorn. Too many times he has made the comment of not having a visible villian. If Sauron is in, I suspect he will show up early in the film.H.C.

Sauron 666 · 09-03-2003, 03:12 PM

I cried for Pearl Harbour, but only because it was such a horrible abomination of a 'movie' . But i can see myself crying at the end of ROTK if the Grey Havens is done rightly. I hope Sauron just sticks to his little eyeball thingy in ROTK for reasons mentioned above.

Sapphire_Flame · 09-03-2003, 03:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I read an interview with PJ on theonering.net ( i think) in which he stated emphatically that Sauron would NOT appear in physical form on the battlefield or elsewhere. He states that Sauron was always more of a symbolic caracter and he'd like to keep that intact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is said in another thread in this forum on the same topic we are discussing here. Go have <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002283" TARGET=_blank>a look.</A>Abedithon le,~*~Aranel~*~

The Only Real Estel · 09-03-2003, 03:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>just that he was leaning away from away from the Sauron/Aragorn battle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's to bad that Sauron will be there, but if he's not allowed to go near Aragorn it will make it slightly better.

samrohan · 09-05-2003, 05:52 AM

I hope that these scenes of Sauron appearing do not appear because Sauron should remain as an image only like in the Book, not a flesh and blood character as anticipated in this thread.Portraying Sauron in the battle with Gil-Galad was correct as it took place, but don't forget that Sauron did nver appear in flesh in the LOTR trilogy, just as a mention.I however fancy Daisy Brambleburr may be right in so far as PJ may take Sauron to the gate to meet Aragorn. It would make a very spectacular scene indeed though not meeting with my approval.

09-01-2003, 10:43 AM	#1
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	Sauron's apperance in RotK Quotes Ok, it seems like there are still quite a few people in the dark about this (& some that aren't), so I'm going to put a lot of quotes up that I found on the subject. You guys can read them if want to. I've been told once that PJ said Sauron <I>won't</I> appear, but I'm going to have to wait until I see the credibility rating on that one. <P> Here you go:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>NEW Sauron Makes Rare Public Appearance<BR>FILMS: Sauron appears in a form other than the Flaming Eye.<BR>BOOKS: Sauron does not directly appear, although according to Gollum, he does have a humanoid form.<BR>PRO: "The Sauron in the books is sketchy at best, which makes it hard to turn him into a screen villain," says Peter Jackson. "But imagine not really seeing Darth Vader for all three Star Wars films. You just can't do it."<BR>CON: This is an invention of the filmmakers and does not represent Tolkien's intent.<BR>SUPPORTED BY: <BR>Empire Magazine "Hail to the King" 12/2/02 (first report) <BR>CREDIBILITY: 4/5<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>A 4 of 5 credibility rating is extremly high... <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Men of Gondor surround them both and Legolas shouts "Aragorn!" as a warning, then Aragorn with Anduril in hand rushes the Dark Lord who looked like he was in different armor than when we saw him in the prologue. It is not an even fight and Aragorn is nearly knocked to death as the countdown to the destruction of the ring begins. I guess the goal is to make the audience wonder if the ring will be destroyed before Aragorn is smeared all over Mordor! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Alex writes, "Well I saw something that could be a possible spoiler for ROTK. On the FOTR DVD extended edition, I don't remember where but I know that it was on disc 3, there is a two-second clip of what looks like Peter Jackson directing the movements of an actor dressed in Sauron's costume and there is a blue screen behind him. When I first saw this I thought PJ was just filming a scene from the prologue with the battle of the last alliance. But I looked at Sauron who was using a sword, and in the prologue, Sauron wielded a mace. This could be some more supporting evidence of Sauron's apearance in ROTK. Of course it could just be somethiung PJ redid but I just thought you might like.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't know who Alex is, but I'm just throwing out quotes.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Whether or not this makes the final cut or not, we now know for certain that Sauron was FILMED as a physical presence taking part in the events of ROTK. This came in from Dave:<BR>"I used to flat with a guy in the NZ army, and when he was in the filming for the big battle in front of the gates of Mordor, Sauron was there fighting. I believe he will appear. I mean there is only so much you can do with a giant eye." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I also don't know who Dave is, but it sounds pretty accurate.<P>We can also use this thread to discuss opinions on this if you want, although it has been done some on other threads. I personally don't really like the idea of Sauron appearing in a physical form, but I can't decide if that's the worse of the 2 evils, or if him fighting Aragorn is. <p>[ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

09-01-2003, 10:51 AM	#2
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	I have every faith that these scenes were filmed. Whether they make the final cut remains to be seen.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

09-01-2003, 10:59 AM	#3
Elentári Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Up a tree somewhere in Caras Galadhon... Posts: 113	Personally I simply cannot imagine Aragorn fighting this Maiar and coming out alive...but naturally I suppose the Ring would be destroyed just as Sauron was about to deal Aragorn his death blow. Or something like that... __________________ Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs? Spread the word! The 1st annual Golden Ring Marathon! October 20th 2005! Tell Everyone! Frodo Lives!

09-01-2003, 12:11 PM	#4
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Personally I simply cannot imagine Aragorn fighting this Maiar and coming out alive...but naturally I suppose the Ring would be destroyed just as Sauron was about to deal Aragorn his death blow. Or something like that...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, unfortunatly that'd probably be the case. I <B>can't stand it</B> when the bad guys get destroyed at the last second, just before they kill there opponent. Although we can only wait & find out. <P> HC: Ditto. I hope that it won't make the final cut, but I'm afraid it probably will.

09-01-2003, 01:36 PM	#5
Daisy Brambleburr Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 334	I can just picture, after the Pellenor fields, Aragorn and co. riding to the Black gates and instead of meeting the Mouth of Sauron they meet the man himself. Aragorn fights him, as a last resort so as to distract him from Frodo. The scenes switch back and forth from Aragorn getting his butt kicked and to Frodo trying to destroy the Ring. You can imagine the tension (for non book people anyway) as Frodo claims the ring for himself, and Sauron's just about to deliver the fatal blow when.....<P>I read something like that somewhere, and it's said in the first post, but that's how it may come out. It gets rid of the Mouth of Sauron so people aren't confused and they don't have to explain him, and makes the grand finale even grander. I may not totally agree with it, but it'll be totally huge.<P>O, the speculation!! __________________ 'What news from the South, O sighing wind, do you bring to me at eve? Where now is Boromir the Fair? He tarries and I grieve.'

09-01-2003, 01:53 PM	#6
mollecon Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 188	Somehow, this amuses me! Let's complaint <I>before</I> the fact(s) - we can always find something to complaint about afterwards...<P>The only thing I've heard said about this is that PJ somehow felt that a movie without the chief villain showing up wouldn't work - but he may change his mind, yet.

09-01-2003, 02:33 PM	#7
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	There's someone cast as the Mouth of Sauron too, so that is not the explanation.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

09-01-2003, 02:47 PM	#8
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Actually, there is a possibility that all of you are mistaken, including the people who wrote that article. Early on, I read an interview with Mark Ferguson (who played Gil-galad) and he said that they had initially filmed quite a few scenes of him fighting wiht Sauron, and getting tossed about pretty badly. They could have filmed that for the prologue, but taken it out later, during the editing process. As for the sword anomaly, who knows, Sauron could have changed weapons. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

09-01-2003, 05:03 PM	#9
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	I did read an interview with Jackson where he was asked point blank about this (though, for the life of me I can't find it now). He never denied shooting it but said that he had still to work out how he was going to present Sauron (this was last June I believe).<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

09-01-2003, 05:28 PM	#10
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Actually, there is a possibility that all of you are mistaken, including the people who wrote that article.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually, I'd love to be wrong. At any rate, what I was saying was that Sauron was filmed, & that there's a good possibilty that he'll show up.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I did read an interview with Jackson where he was asked point blank about this (though, for the life of me I can't find it now). He never denied shooting it but said that he had still to work out how he was going to present Sauron (this was last June I believe).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Do you remember if it had a credibility rating or not? That helps a bit...

09-01-2003, 05:31 PM	#11
arianrod Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Wandering Hobbiton, smiling at the hobbits & trying to sell them vacuum cleaners Posts: 215	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can just picture, after the Pellenor fields, Aragorn and co. riding to the Black gates and instead of meeting the Mouth of Sauron they meet the man himself. Aragorn fights him, as a last resort so as to distract him from Frodo. The scenes switch back and forth from Aragorn getting his butt kicked and to Frodo trying to destroy the Ring. You can imagine the tension (for non book people anyway) as Frodo claims the ring for himself, and Sauron's just about to deliver the fatal blow when.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That sounds very close to how I think it could turn out, Daisy. Sounds very Peter-like to me. On the plus side, it would be much more tense and dramamtic, despite the inconsistancy. I'm also very worried about how such a scene would turn out, but maybe it wouldn't be so terrible? I mean, who knows? PJ's crazy idea may accutually enhance the movie this time.... __________________ Eenie, meanie, Samwise Gamgee, Staring after pretty Rosie, If she calls, watch him blush, then turn and leave in a rush. You want to join the Citadel... You know you do... Do the Wave for Boromir the Disco King!

09-01-2003, 05:43 PM	#12
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	But wouldn't Sauron still be a giant eyeball without the ring? I thought Sauron needed it to take physical form, at least that is what I got from the book. Are we sure that it is not the mouth of Sauron they are talking about and they just mistook him for Sauron because that seems more logical to me. __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

09-01-2003, 06:34 PM	#13
Horse-Maiden of the Shire Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chillaxin' with Glorfindel-441 miles on the RtR Posts: 1,197	Well. If Sauron appears in physical form, all I have to say is this: I do NOT want it to happen, and I might get kicked out of the theater if it does. __________________ "There's a big...machine in the sky...some kind of electric snake...coming straight at us." "Shoot it," said my attorney. "Not yet...I want to study its habits."

09-01-2003, 07:14 PM	#14
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But wouldn't Sauron still be a giant eyeball without the ring? I thought Sauron needed it to take physical form, at least that is what I got from the book. Are we sure that it is not the mouth of Sauron they are talking about and they just mistook him for Sauron because that seems more logical to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's how it should be, or at least in the books. Nope, unfortunatly I'm sure they didn't film the Mouth instead of Sauron. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well. If Sauron appears in physical form, all I have to say is this: I do NOT want it to happen, and I might get kicked out of the theater if it does.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey, you're probably not alone, although I'll stick around for the end of it of course. But let me know if anything interesting <I>does</I> happen .

09-01-2003, 07:32 PM	#15
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But wouldn't Sauron still be a giant eyeball without the ring? I thought Sauron needed it to take physical form, at least that is what I got from the book. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I completely disagree with this. Gollum talks about Sauron having nine fingers. Can an eyeball have nine fingers? Shagrat talks about the possibility of Sauron coming to Cirith Ungol himself. Can an eyeball do that? I think there is enough evidence in the book to give Sauron a physical appearance in the film if Jackson wanted to do that. For me, having extra scenes with Sauron in Barad-dur is no different then the extra scenes that were given to Saruman in Orthanc. <P><A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001972" TARGET=_blank>Here</A> is a relevent thread from the book forum.<P>Fighting Aragorn ... That's a completely different question.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Do you remember if it had a credibility rating or not? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It was a interview with Jackson from a fan magazine that was quoted at OneRing. I don't think credibility is an issue, unless it's mine.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

09-01-2003, 07:33 PM	#16
Blue_Punk_Dragon Guest Posts: n/a	ok, i'm kind of confused on this, what's wrong with Sauron appearing in physical form? i don't really care either way, but i don't think he will. i just need to be a little more clued in on what's wrong with seeing Sauron in physical form. help me here.

09-01-2003, 07:38 PM	#17
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	It's not so much Sauron appearing (which has been filmed, although perhaps not included in RotK), I can deal with that. It's Sauron fighting Aragorn that gets me for reasons I will post tommorow. <P>HC: I don't doubt your credibility, but if the quote rules out something that's been said before, then they'll list it as just a rumour, or something that's unlikely to happen. That's why I was wondering, since they list discountings under credibility.

09-01-2003, 10:20 PM	#18
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	I must say this. If I am sitting in the theaters and Sauron walks out of the morannon I will walk out of the theater. that is going TO FAR __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

09-02-2003, 02:30 AM	#19
dragoneyes Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Completely lost track, sorry! Posts: 733	I'm not sure I'd go as far as walking out, but I'd most certainly sit there muttering to myself.<P>Do you think they's bother explaining how he did it, or just let it be an evil surprise at the end? __________________ "We might succeed in roasting Pippin alive inside." - Frodo.

09-02-2003, 12:15 PM	#20
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	I think they'll probably just have it happen (unless it <B>doesn't</B> make the final cut, which is possible. I don't think I'll walk out either, because as I said before, I don't like the idea of Sauron showing up, but I like the idea of him fighting Aragorn much less. & here are the reasons for that that I promised Blue_Punk_Dragon:<P>Aragorn wouldn't be able to stand up to more than 2 (if that many) whacks from Sauron.<P>It'll give it this sort of feeling (quote from a post of Elentari's above):<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Personally I simply cannot imagine Aragorn fighting this Maiar and coming out alive...but naturally I suppose the Ring would be destroyed just as Sauron was about to deal Aragorn his death blow. Or something like that... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> That is something I (& most people) can't stand watching, but it's also a very real possibility that PJ will make it like that, given his love for dramatics.<P> Of course this is presuming that the scene makes the cut, but this thread is for are ideas, so feel free to presume that it will be in the movie while you post. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I completely disagree with this. Gollum talks about Sauron having nine fingers. Can an eyeball have nine fingers? Shagrat talks about the possibility of Sauron coming to Cirith Ungol himself. Can an eyeball do that? I think there is enough evidence in the book to give Sauron a physical appearance in the film if Jackson wanted to do that. For me, having extra scenes with Sauron in Barad-dur is no different then the extra scenes that were given to Saruman in Orthanc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I do agree with this to a point. I think that Sauron is <B>not</B> just an eyeball ontop of his tower, but rather that is a symbol of him. In the books the 'eye' was simply looking out a window, so it could've belonged to a body. Although PJ sticking the eye in-between the horns might confuse people, I thought it was a nice touch. I do think that Sauron was a spirit (with 9 fingers) that couldn't quite take shape again until he had the Ring. That's why I said that he should still be relegated to 'eyeball status' in the movie. I meant spirit status, but oh well.

09-02-2003, 12:41 PM	#21
Elentári Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Up a tree somewhere in Caras Galadhon... Posts: 113	Ohh...I had imagined Sauron as simply being an eyeball...but if it belongs to a body...oooh, do you think he could be a Cyclops??? That would be extremely scary!!!<BR>I can't wait to see this one...I want to see if it will make me cry. I seem to be unable to cry through watching Hollywood movies...for instance Pearl Harbor. All my friends were bawling their eyes out, and I was like, 'shut up guys, I can't hear it!' (It was the DVD- I wouldn't have had any trouble hearing it in the cinema.) Yeah, heartless, I know...but honestly, two of my friends started crying about half an hour into it, because they knew what would happen!!! The only thing that has ever made me cry was three episodes in a row of the Forsyte Saga (of the last series- it's a British TV drama).<BR>Back on topic... I don't think I'll walk out if it happens, I'll probably be glued to my seat with the tension. But hey. __________________ Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs? Spread the word! The 1st annual Golden Ring Marathon! October 20th 2005! Tell Everyone! Frodo Lives!

09-02-2003, 07:14 PM	#22
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	I kind of agree with you two. Sauron must keep part of himself as an eyeball so he can see everything and part of himself in a more solid form. If he can take physical form without the ring I feel that he would be a lot weaker and ghost like, similar to the Nazgul. For Sauron seems quite like a Nazgul because I remember Gandalf saying that you couldn't true kill Sauron but if the ring was destroyed his spirit would be sent to the darkest depths of the earth where it would naw on itself. (I can't remember Gandalf's exact words but I think you get the idea ) __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

09-03-2003, 05:47 AM	#23
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	The Director brought this problem on himself when he had Sauron be vanquished in the prologue of FotR when the Ring was taken from him. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

09-03-2003, 08:53 AM	#24
Elentári Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Up a tree somewhere in Caras Galadhon... Posts: 113	True...but he returned, didn't he. For ages people thought he had perished. Or is that in the film? Argh, I'm getting confused! <BR>But PJ is going to have to explain that Sauron gave himself a physical shape of some sort again. Maybe he will look like a Nazgûl with one flaming eye? __________________ Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs? Spread the word! The 1st annual Golden Ring Marathon! October 20th 2005! Tell Everyone! Frodo Lives!

09-03-2003, 09:55 AM	#25
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The Director brought this problem on himself when he had Sauron be vanquished in the prologue of FotR when the Ring was taken from him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agreed. It will be interesting, if Sauron does physically appear, whether the film audience will be confused. We'll have to wait and see.<P>In the film at Bag End, Gandalf does say to Frodo, "He [Sauron] cannot yet take physical form." Perhaps implying that it was only a matter of time.<P>It will be interesting to see how all this is dealt with, if it is dealt with at all.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

09-03-2003, 10:42 AM	#26
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Now that I think about it, Sauron could have been something in between a Balrog and a Wraith. That way, he could have had fiery eyes, but still not have been able to completely take a physical form. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

09-03-2003, 02:08 PM	#27
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>if it is dealt with at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> About that real quick:<P> I think it'd be strange if PJ <B>didn't </B> put Sauron in now, & here's why:<BR> <BR>After talking so much about how you can't really go through a movie without seeing the main bad guy (his Star Wars analogy), why would he now turn around & <B>not</B> have us see him? But if he's already said (in that article you reffered to, HC) that Sauron won't appear, than won't he be concerditing what he already said (Star Wars analogy)? But if Sauron is in it, then PJ will have lied in the article. Hmm, just some random thoughts of mine while I was trying despertly to fall asleep last night at 1 AM.

09-03-2003, 02:43 PM	#28
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But if he's already said (in that article you reffered to, HC) that Sauron won't appear <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just to be clear. What I recall PJ saying was that he wasn't sure how he was going to present Sauron, but that he was leaning closer to what was in the books. This was in response to the question of whether Sauron will be fighting Aragorn.<P>I wouldn't take this as a statement that he was leaning towards Sauron not being in the film, just that he was leaning away from away from the Sauron/Aragorn battle. Again, he could have been lieing or he could once again change his mind.<P>I agree with you Estel. If I were a betting man, I would guess Sauron will be a physical presense, but will not fight Aragorn. Too many times he has made the comment of not having a visible villian. If Sauron is in, I suspect he will show up early in the film.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

09-03-2003, 03:12 PM	#29
Sauron 666 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 59	I cried for Pearl Harbour, but only because it was such a horrible abomination of a 'movie' . But i can see myself crying at the end of ROTK if the Grey Havens is done rightly. I hope Sauron just sticks to his little eyeball thingy in ROTK for reasons mentioned above. __________________ Ash Nazg Durbatuluk Ash Nazg Gimbatul Ash Nazg Thrakatuluk Arg Burzum-Ishi Krimpatul

09-03-2003, 03:17 PM	#30
Sapphire_Flame Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The World That Never Was Posts: 1,232	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I read an interview with PJ on theonering.net ( i think) in which he stated emphatically that Sauron would NOT appear in physical form on the battlefield or elsewhere. He states that Sauron was always more of a symbolic caracter and he'd like to keep that intact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is said in another thread in this forum on the same topic we are discussing here. Go have <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002283" TARGET=_blank>a look.</A><P>Abedithon le,<P>~~Aranel~~ __________________ The Hitchhiking Ghost

09-03-2003, 03:26 PM	#31
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>just that he was leaning away from away from the Sauron/Aragorn battle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's to bad that Sauron will be there, but if he's not allowed to go near Aragorn it will make it slightly better.

09-05-2003, 05:52 AM	#32
samrohan Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Touring Minas Tirith with Gimli and Legolas Posts: 107	I hope that these scenes of Sauron appearing do not appear because Sauron should remain as an image only like in the Book, not a flesh and blood character as anticipated in this thread.<P>Portraying Sauron in the battle with Gil-Galad was correct as it took place, but don't forget that Sauron did nver appear in flesh in the LOTR trilogy, just as a mention.<P>I however fancy Daisy Brambleburr may be right in so far as PJ may take Sauron to the gate to meet Aragorn. It would make a very spectacular scene indeed though not meeting with my approval. __________________ I can't believe I have not watched the return of the king yet.