* *Revised Fall of Gondolin pt.2 [the transition]* *

[lindil]

[original compilation of previous council work by Antoine, moved into seperate thread from [Revised Fall of Gondolin]


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general abreviations

BoLT 1 The Book of Lost Tales 1 (HoME 1).
FG "The Fall of Gondolin" from The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoME 2).
TE "The Tale of Eärendel" from The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoME 2).
Q30 "The Quenta", written in 1930, from The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4). Quotations are from §16 and from §17 in the Q2 version including later emendations as per the notes.
AB 2 "The Later Annals of Beleriand", written about 1936?, from The Lost Road (HoME 5). Unknown to Christopher Tolkien when he produced QS77.
Tuor "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin", written about 1951 from Unfinished Tales
TO refers to the brief notes given in note 59 to to the later Tuor in UT.
Elessar The Elessar from "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in UT.
TY "The Tale of Years", (1951-52), from The War of the Jewels (HoME 11)
PG The Parentage of Gil-galad, a long note by Christopher Tolkien appended to SF, containing material by his father on this matter.
SF "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", Feburary 1968 or later, in the chapter of the same name from "The Peoples of Middle-earth" (HoME 13).
QS77 Quenta Silmarillion as published in The Silmarillion edited by Christopher Tolkien in 1977.
TO - refers to the brief notes given in note 59 to to the later Tuor in UT.


The Transition <from UT source text to BoLT/Q30 source text>


The Transition

FG-T-01
Here I assume that we will follow the later 'Tuor' in Unfinished Tales as far as it goes; I thus start with the transition immediately following the last line of this text, "Then Ecthelion said at last: 'Now no further proof is needed; and even the name he claims as son of Huor matters less than this clear truth, that he comes from Ulmo himself."
I suggest starting a little further back in FG with:
Then spake Tuor also and questioned where they might be, and who might be the folk in arms who stood about, for he was somewhat in amaze and wondered much at the goodly fashion of their weapons.

FG-T-02
Then spake Tuor also and questioned {where they might be, and} who might be the folk in arms who stood about, for he was somewhat in amaze and wondered much at the goodly fashion of their weapons.
I remove the phrase "where they might be" as it is already a strangely unperceptive question in the original, and really cannot stand in the new version where Tuor knows much more from Elemmacil and the passing of the other gates. But something is needed to lead into Tuor's question about "these names". And that question about the "folk in arms" follows perfectly from the end of Tuor where we have just been told that
upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the seven kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented;
It is not surprising that Tuor asks about this array of folk greater than he has yet seen.

FG-T-03
{Then said Tuor: "What be those names?"} /*TO Tuor asked the name of the city,*/ {And} [and] …

FG-T-04
/*QS77 At the bidding of Ecthelion trumpets were blown on the towers of the great gate, and they echoed in the hills; and far off but clear there came a sound of answering trumpets blown upon the white walls of the city, flushed with the rose of dawn upon the plain.*/ Then /*TO {Horses} [horses] were brought (a grey horse for Tuor)*/ [and] said …

FG-T-05 KO
horses were brought {(a grey horse for Tuor)} [, one white for Voronwë and one grey for Tuor;]
I may have taken too much liberty in adding that Voronwe's horse was white, but I can't think of any other reasonable way to introduce the fact that Tuor's horse was grey; all other horses used by the Eldar seem to be white. We might simply use: . . . horses were brought, a grey horse for Tuor . . .; I don't know if that's really awkward or not.

FG-T-06
… Tuor asked the name of the city, and {the chief of the Guard} [Elemmakil] made answer: …
… and said {the chief of the guard} [Elemmakil] that they themselves must abide here, for there were yet many days of their moon of watch to pass, …
On "chief of the guard", "captain of the guard", "Warden of the Great Gate" there is no certainty it seems. I would assume "chief" and "captain" are equivalent terms, and "captain" takes priority with us. Elemmacil reports to no-one at any of the other gates save the last, so is perhaps chief of the guards for all seven gates. Yet though Ecthelion is "Warden of the Great Gate" not Warden of the Gates, he appears to be Elemmacil's superior.
Of course there is only one gate in FG. In Tuor the "chief of the guard" has been broken into two persons, and one of them identified with Echthelion. Probably each of the other six gates had its own warden, all reporting to the "Warden of the Great Gate". The charge of the wardens would be normal maintainance and providing support for the guards. And the guards would report to Elemmacil who also reports to the "Warden of the Great Gate". There's no definite answer though as to who says what in FG other than whether words seem to better fit Elemmacil or Ecthelion.
There are points in favor of each:
1. Ecthelion is clearly the highest ranking Noldo in the scene; the captain of the Guard in LT is likewise the highest ranking Noldo on the scene.
From Tuor:
And high and noble as was Elemma[c]il, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate.
Also Elemmacil salutes Ecthelion rather than Echthelion saluting Elemmacil, and the tone of Elemmacil's words are slightly subservient.
2. a. Elemmakil is referred to as 'captain of the guard' and
b. Ecthelion already existed when the LT was written; he is therefore clearly NOT the same person as the captain of the guard from LT.
'Elemmakil' could easily be the name of that person, though.
I think overall, 2 is the stronger argument.

FG-T-07
…but that Voronwë and Tuor might pass on to Gondolin {; and moreover that they would need thereto no guide, for} [:] "Lo, it stands fair to see and very clear, and its towers prick the heavens above the Hill of Watch in the midmmost plain." Then Tuor and his companion {fared} /*Q30 were led*/ over the plain that was of a marvellous ...
Q30 is very explicit about the journey across the plain:
Thither they were led and passed the gates of steel, and were brought before the step of the palace of the king.
The gates of steel are here the gates of Gondolin. The journey of Tuor and Voronwë alone is here rejected.
I could not bear to leave out the description of Gondolin though its purpose is now gone.

FG-T-08
But Tuor looked upon the walls of stone, and the uplifted towers, upon the glistening pinnacles of the town, and he looked upon the stairs of stone and marble /*TO up to its high platform and its great gate*/, bordered by slender balustrades …

FG-T-09
… and he fared as one in some dream of the {Gods} [Valar], for he deemed not such things were seen by men in the visions of their sleep, so great was his amaze at the glory of Gondolin.

FG-T-10
Even so came they to the gates, Tuor in wonder and Voronwë in great joy that daring much he had brought Tuor hither in the will of Ulmo {and he had himself thrown off the yoke of Melko for ever. Though he hated him no wise less, no longer did he dread that Evil One with a binding terror (and of a sooth that spell which Melko held over the Noldoli was one of bottomless dread, so that he seemed ever nigh them even were they far from the Hells of Iron, and their hearts quaked and they fled not even when they could; and to this Melko trusted often)}.
In the later story Voronwe was not captured by Morgoth. This paragraph, reduced as it is, should probably be appended to the previous paragraph.

FG-T-11
Now is there a sally from the gates of Gondolin and a throng comes about these twain in wonder, rejoicing that {yet another of the Noldoli has fled hither from Melko} [Voronwë had returned], and marvelling at the stature and gaunt limbs of Tuor …

FG-T-12
... and marvelling at the stature and gaunt limbs of Tuor, his heavy spear barbed with fish bone and his great harp [and his] /*FG armour*/ /*FG made of {Gnome} [Noldo]-steel overlaid with silver; {but} and his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield.*/ {Rugged} [But rugged] was his aspect, and his locks were unkempt …
The description of Tuor as rugged and clad in skins is well enough in the original FG. But what now of his Elvish armour? I suggest here be inserted the description of his armour found later in FG where it is introduced as a gift from Turgon to Tuor.

FG-T-13
... and marvelling at the stature and gaunt limbs of Tuor, {his heavy spear barbed with fish bone and} his great harp
I see now that "his heavy spear barbed with fish bone" must be deleted. From Tuor, describing Turor and Voronwë's setting out:
Tuor took with him the small bow and arrows that he had brought, beside the gear that he had taken from the hall; but his spear, upon which his name was written in the eleven[ sic]-runes of the North, he set upon the wall in token that he had passed.

FG-T-14
… and his locks were unkempt{, and he was clad in the skin of bears}
So he has no spear when he comes to Gondolin. I think "clad in the skins of bears" must also go. It might still be true; but it would be most unusual for Tuor to wear his garments over his mail-coat instead of under it, and so the Noldor would see little of them. Tuor's cloak, Ulmo's gift, which he does naturally wear over his armour, is almost certainly not bear-skin.

FG-T-15
{'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth, yet} [Yet] was Tuor taller than any that stood there{. Indeed} [though indeed] the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for {Melko} [Morgoth], but {small were} they [were] /*QE strong and tall, but*/ {and} slender and {very} lithe. They were swift of foot and surpassing fair; sweet and sad were their mouths, and their eyes had ever a joy within quivering to tears; for in those times the {Gnomes} [Noldor] were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not. But fate and unconquerable eagerness after knowledge had driven them into far places, and now were they hemmed by {Melko} [Morgoth] and must make their abiding as fair as they might by labour and by love.
I don't think we need to delete all the material on differences of Elves and Men. Refer to The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), "Quendi and Eldar", under Sindar:
In general the Sindar apear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.
In this late writing Noldor are still "lithe", that is slender. Lets try this:
One has the very tall, burly Man compared to the Elves who come out before the city to meet him, some of whom are also tall, but not as tall as Tuor, who are also strong, but more slender in build. (Turgon is taller than Tuor presumably, but he is waiting at the palace.) The end of the passage reminds the reader of the situation of the Noldor in Gondolin, as here seen by Tuor, and so I think worth keeping.

FG-T-16
{How it came ever that among Men the Noldoli have been confused with the Orcs who are Melko's goblins, I know not, unless it be that certain of the Noldoli were twisted to the evil of Melko and mingled among these Orcs, for all that race were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed; foul their faces which smiled not, but their laugh that of the clash of metal, and to nothing were they more fain than to aid in the basest of the purposes of Melko. The greatest hatred was between them and the Noldoli, who named them Glamhoth, or folk of dreadful hate.}
There is no suggestion in later writings of Elves being confused with Orcs.

FG-T-17
… and one among them spake saying: {"}[']This is a city of watch and ward, Gondolin on Amon {Gwareth} [Gwared], where all may be free who are of true heart, but none may be free to enter unknown. Tell me then your names.{"}[']

FG-T-18
But Voronwë named himself {Bronweg of the Gnomes}, come hither by the will of Ulmo as guide to this son of Men;

FG-T-19
… and Tuor said: {"}[']I am Tuor son of {Peleg} [Huor] son of {Indor} [Galdor] of the {house of the Swan} [House of Hador] of the sons of the Men of the North who live far hence, and I fare hither by the will of Ulmo of the Outer Oceans.{"}[']
I think that even if we decide to retain the 'house of the Swan' as referring to Annael, we should use 'the house of Hador' here, since he has just named his father and grandfather.

FG-T-20
Then did the throng return within the gates and the wanderers with them, and Tuor saw they were of iron and of great height and strength. Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and coursts amid gardens of bright flowers and /*TO mounds of mallorns, birches, and evergreen trees*/ were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvellously rose to the heaven.

FG-T-21
Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the {king} [King]'s {palace} /*TO house*/, and the tower thereof /*TO on a pillared arcade*/ was the loftiest in the city, /*TO {and the banner of Fingolfin} [and above it flew the banner of Fingolfin]*/ and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms …

FG-T-22
On either side of the doors of the palace were [the gilded images o] two trees, one {that bore blossom} of gold and the other of silver, {nor did they ever fade, for} [and] they were {shoots of old from} [likenesse] of the glorious Trees of Valinor that lit those places before {Melko} [Morgoth] and {Gloomweaver} [Ungoliant] withered them: and those trees the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] named {Glingol} [Glingal] and {Bansil} [Belthil].

FG-T-23
Then Turgon {king} [King] of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, /*TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol,*/ and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, /*TO {with a} [and at his side] a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath*/ stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. {"}[']Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was {set in our books of wisdom} [foretold by Ulmo], {and it has been written} [saying] that {there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim} /*QS77 beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men*/ whenso thou faredst hither.{"}[']/*QS77 {and}[And] upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son, but upon his left hand sat Idril Celebrindal his daughter*/ /*TO {and that it was to be emphasized, either when Tuor first set eyes upon Idril or at some earlier point, that} [and at the sight of her Tuor marvelled, for] he had known or even seen few woment in his life. Most of the women and all the children of Annael's company in Mithrim were sent away south; and as a thrall Tuor had seen only the proud and barbarous women of the Easterlings, who treated him as a beast, or the unhappy slaves forced to labour from childhood, for whom he had only pity.*/
There is no later indication of this prophecy.
I think Turgon's speech may be retained with revisions.
The FG written prophecies are the counterparts to Ulmo's prophecy in later writings and I think something like this might be the minimal change in wording to translate the old account to fit the new. Turgon is of course trying to put the best light on the prophecy.
I am tempted to suggest that Glamdring 'Foehammer' be inserted here as the name of Turgon's sword. But *Sigh!* we cannot know that the sword Turgon is wearing here or at any time in the tale is actually Glamdring. He might have worn Glamdring for years, for example, then bestowed it on another. He might have one sword for state occasions and one for battle.
I also suggest re-using here in describing Idril the phrase from The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), "The Later Quenta Silmarillion", 12:
... her hair was as the gold of Laurelin ere the coming of Melkor.
The reader will probably have forgotten this bit of information from the tale of the founding of Gondolin, and it would would provide a vivid touch here at the beginning of the real story of Idril. It also distinguishes Idril from the dark-haired Lúthien.

FG-T-24
Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. "Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who {maketh} [makest] deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men[.]{, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the Noldoli and the wanderings of Men; for Melko ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe."} /*Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo /*TO in the hearing of all*/, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared[.] /*QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish; and he bade him depart, and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down Sirion to the sea[,]*/ /*TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon} [and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]*/*/
I added 'in the hearing of all' from TO; that outline says that this occurs either 'in the hearing of all' or 'in a council-chamber'. There's really nothing to push us in either direction, but the former is much easier to work into the narrative, so I went with it.
Possibly a little more of Tuor's words from Ulmo can be fitted in. Then follow with the standard Q30/ QS77 summary. JRRT does seem to have later dropped altogether the idea that Ulmo urged Turgon to take action other than abandoning Gondolin, and so most of the BoLT account of the message and Turgon's response does have to go.
On the matter of style here, we will have to see when the Maeglin material and other matter of Turgon's stay in Gondolin is fitted in, at what point it is best that the modern style ceases and the archaic style begins. Until then I think the safest is to build the base text with exact words as you are doing.

FG-T-25
{Then spake Turgon: "That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orks, nor emperil my city against the fire of Morgoth."
Then spake Tuor: "Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orks dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the Noldor; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orks fall, and Morgoth's power be minished to a little thing."
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: "Then am I bidden to say that men of the Gondolindrim repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of Túna and the Gods sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of Morgoth, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite Morgoth, and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness."}
/*QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.*/
Here I would delete all 3 paragraphs from FG. The exact dialogue they use here is not so relevant to the later story; for example, the message bidding Tuor to prepare for battle appears to have been dropped. I think it's better to follow the more concise account of their converse above, at least until.

FG-T-26
Then said Turgon: {"}[']Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko} [Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko} [Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.{"}[']
I eliminate 'that is called' as Tuor has just spoken of the Sirion, and obviously knows what it is. After this paragraph, I think we can follow FG with more limited corrections.
=============================================
=============================================
further work on the 7 names
Aiwendil posted July 25, 2001 10:16 AM

On the seven names of Gondolin

First, I'll deal strictly with updating the old names:

Gondobar, Loth, and, of course, Gondolin can stay. 'Gondothlimbar' is merely the class plural for the dwellers in Gondolin + _bar_; I believe the later class plural was _Gondolidrim_, so I used *Gondolidrimbar, as awkward as it sounds. There might be better suggestions there. The question mark is for Gwarestrin, where we have a bit more of a problem: this is said in II to mean 'tower of guard'; a literal rendering of this in later Sindarin would be Minas Tirith, which I don't think we can use in light of the Minas Tirith that already exists in the 1st age. A look at the etymological notes in II reveals that 'Gwarestrin' means more literally 'guard pinnacle'; we could represent 'pinnacle' with Sindarin _amon_ or _ered_, 'hill' and 'mountain', respectively. 'Amon Gwareth', of course, already refers to the hill on which the city is built. But I think for 'guard' the best to use is _tir_ as in _tirith_ and _tirion_. Then we might have _Amon Tirith_ or something like that, or we could make an actual compound, _Tiramon_. The last name, 'Lothengriol' presents less of a problem. It is said here to mean 'flower that blooms on the plain', but since 1. I could find no later Sindarin (or Quenya) word for 'plain' and 2. the etymological notes give _engriol_ not as 'plain' but as 'valley', I changed it here to 'valley', using _nan_ for plain. This gives us *Lothnan, which (I think) would become *Lothinan.

On top of these concerns, however, we have several later names for Gondolin that appear in the Etymologies. These are 'Gondost', 'Ardholen', and 'Garthoren'. These names are not mentioned in direct connection with the 7 names of the city; we therefore might assume that they are not among the 7 names. However, as the 7 names already include some that are clearly more colloquial nick-names, and as we never again find any other names for Gondolin, I think we should probably include these three.

That means, of course, that three of the original names must be replaced. 'Gondost' is given as 'stone city'; at first glance, then, it would appear to best replace 'Gondobar', translated 'stone city' by the guard and more literally meaning 'stone dwelling'. However, this is a problem, as we find 'Gondobar' in the etymologies as well. Clearly the two names existed side by side. This leads us to a further problem: if we use both 'Gondost' and 'Gondobar', we'll have basically the same translations used by the guard: 'Gondobar, city of stone, and Gondost, city of stone'. The best solution I can say would be to use something like: 'Gondobar, stone-dwelling, and Gondost, city of stone.'

What, then, should 'Gondost' replace? My inclination would be 'Gondothlimbar' - this is awkward when we update it to _Gondolidrimbar_, and I think the conjunction of 'Gondobar' and 'Gondost' makes the most sense if they appear next to each other. However, beyond these practical concerns, there is nothing particularly to indicate that 'Gondost' would have replaced 'Gondothlimbar'.

The names 'Ardholen' and 'Garthoren' seem to be related. The etymolgies are very confusing on these. Under the stem
GAT(H)-, we are given: "Another name is Garthurian = Fenced Realm = N Ardholen (which was also applied to Gondolin)."

'Another name', I think, refers to Doriath; there is a discussion of Doriath's names a few sentences earlier, and later, _Garthurian_ again appears as a name for Doriath. Here, however, it is equated with _Ardholen_. I'm not sure what we are to understand the relationship to be; perhaps _Garthurian_ is Dorathrin and _Ardholen_ is Noldorin?

Under the stem 3AR- (3 representing the back-spirant), we have: "Dor. garth realm, Garthurian (Fenced Realm = Doriath)" This at least seems to make it clear that _Garthurian_ is Doriathrin, and refers to Doriath.

Later under the same stem (though the stem GARAT- was later inserted for this section), we are given: 'Q arta fort, fortress. N garth: cf. Garth(th)oren 'Fenced Fort' = Gondolin-distinguish Ardh-thoren = Garthurian."

From all this, the only conclusion I can draw is that we are dealing with two separate, though similar, names. One is Doriathrin 'Garthurian', meaning Doriath, the Noldorin form of which, 'Ardholen', refers to Gondolin (a situation that would get confusing if a Noldo wanted to refer to Doriath). The second is 'Garthoren', a a Noldorin name referring only to Gondolin. The first name means 'Fenced Realm', the second means 'Fenced Fort'.

Under the stem THUR- we are given _thuru_ = fence (Noldorin). So 'Garthoren' at least makes sense etymologically. For 'Ardholen' to work, though, we'd need some kind of word *olen meaning 'fence'. This is, I suppose, possible, since 'Ardholen' is JRRT's Noldorin translation of 'Garthurian', which means 'Fenced Realm'.

'Garthoren' looks quite a bit like 'Gar Thurion', one of the original names for Gondolin. Its meaning, however, is completely different: 'Fenced Fort' vs. 'Secret Place'. We could, though, replace 'Gar Thurion' with 'Garthoren' fairly reasonably.

'Ardholen', though, looks very little like any of the original names, in spelling or meaning. If we are to use it as one of the seven names, the best replacement I could come up with would be to use it for the problematic 'Gwarestrin', though there is no real basis for this.

Sorry for the length and tedium of this discussion, but I think it's an important one. The 7 names of Gondolin should definitely be preserved (they are mentioned in TO); and, of course, we have to do our best to make them work etymologically.


Aiwendil posted June 21, 2002 11:19 AM

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Maédhros]

FG-T-05 KO
horses were brought {(a grey horse for Tuor)} [, one white for Voronwë and one grey for Tuor;]
I may have taken too much liberty in adding that Voronwe's horse was white, but I can't think of any other reasonable way to introduce the fact that Tuor's horse was grey; all other horses used by the Eldar seem to be white. We might simply use: . . . horses were brought, a grey horse for Tuor . . .; I don't know if that's really awkward or not.

Is it really that important to say that his horse was white? Do we even know that? There is a reference that says that elves also used grey horses.
From Of Tuor and his Coming to Godolin:

Thus he stood and spoke no word. Silent upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the seven kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented; but their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey.

lindil: I remeber that I posted in a thread about the 7 names of Gondolin, is that gone or did I just imagine it.

[lindil]

I made the error of moving the official/original 7 names thread to the archives thread. Then when Aiwendil pointed out that the material had not previously been transfered to the Revised FOG threads as I asssumed [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] . I moved the Aiwendil's final version which I think had remained uncommented upon for quite a while to this thread [see further comets on the seven names at the end I believe] so it may well be in the archives thread still. Feel free to copy it out or Ican do it if there are italics and such you wish to preserve.

Apologies to all whose posts were misfiled.

[ October 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Aiwendil]

Is it really that important to say that his horse was white? Do we even know that? There is a reference that says that elves also used grey horses.

This was a grave error that I have thoroughly repudiated. I thought at the time that the TO, the outline I was using for much of the transition, needed expansion here. I was wrong. This change has already been revoked and does not (I think) appear in the draft.

[Aiwendil]

Here is the '7 Names' discussion that was misplaced (sorry for the length, but I think it's important for this discussion to be accessible):

Aiwendil
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posted June 21, 2002 11:19 AM
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This is the situation as I see it with each of the names, after taking into account the discussion on the FoG thread.:
Gondolin: Obviously stays; "Stone song".

Gondobar: This works as well; it's translated "city of stone" in FoG, more literal would be "Stone dwelling".

Loth: This also works; "Flower".

Gondothlimbar: We have two options here:
1.Gondothrimbar, which appears to be JRRT's new form for it, but supposes Gondothrim as an alternate name for the Gondolindrim; or 2. Gondolindrimbar, which is formed from the known class plural, but is rather awkward. The translation would be roughly the same for each: "City of the people of Gondolin" or "City of the dwellers in stone".

Gar Thurian: I think that Garthoren was clearly meant as a replacement for this, despite the completely different etymology. I would use it. "Fenced Fort".

Lothengriol: I had missed in my first analysis that this is replaced in HoMe III with Loth-a-ladwen. Jallanite notes that this latter form is also not very good as later Sindarin, but suggests retaining it since it could be an archaic, poetic form. I would be tempted to replace it with Loth-en-laden, or at least Loth-a-laden. "Lily of the plain".

Gwarestrin: This is not quite as difficult as I first thought. We can either keep it, assuming some unknown etymology for esc, or we could use Gwaraectrin from aeg='point'. It is translated "Tower of the Guard" in FoG; more literal is "Guard pinnacle".

In addition to these seven names, we have the problem of two further names appearing later for Gondolin:

Gondost: This is perfectly acceptable as later Sindarin. "Stone City".

Ardholen: This is also probably valid. "Fenced Realm".

The problem is: Gondolin is said to have seven names. We now have nine. Two of them must go; but neither of the two extra names looks like an obvious replacement for any of the original seven. At first glance, it appears that Gondost might supercede Gondobar, but both are found in the Etymologies, indicating that they probably existed side by side.

It is this problem of too many names, rather than any of the actual etymological concerns that is difficult. Should we drop the two extra names? Should we pick two of the original seven to replace with them?

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]


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obloquy
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posted June 21, 2002 12:02 PM
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Ardholen and Gar Thurian (Garthoren) appear to mean roughly the same thing, so I think the final list of names should include only one or the other.
Gondost and Gondobar mean approximately the same thing as well, so I think the same should go for these two.

In other words, I think all of the unique meanings should be retained. I'll leave the linguistic issues of Lothengriol and Gwarestrin to you who know more about that. I don't think it violates the principles of the project, however, to abandon obsolete (Elvish) words in favor of later, more appropriate words that bear the same meaning.


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Aiwendil
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posted June 22, 2002 02:39 PM
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I think that in the end Obloquy's suggestion is the best way to go. The main problem with it is that both Gondost and Gondobar appear in the Etymologies, and so do both Ardholen and Garthoren. This suggests that all four existed side by side. There are other possible explanations for this, though. Perhaps Ardholen and Garthoren were indeed merely variants of the same name (for a discussion of the treatment of these two names in Etym. see the FoG thread).
So, though it's not perfect, right now I think I agree that we should substitute Gondost for Gondobar and drop Ardholen in favor of Garthoren (or perhaps the other way around on the latter).

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]


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lindil
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posted June 23, 2002 12:17 PM
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sounds good. And of course there is no reason we can not re-visit the question if need be.

good to see you Obloquy.

I will try and get a similar "transition " thread up in the next few days (minus the 7 names ). I have actually worked on it exstensively 2x onlt to have the HML prob coem and to forget to savwe the changes that the forum would except....

Anyway will give it another go and unless I hear negatively from any members I will try and post the Aussie Rev. Silm material on the private forum.

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.oh yeah, read Otherland!


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obloquy
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posted June 24, 2002 12:46 AM
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Yeah, I'm hooked up, thanks lindil.
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Maédhros
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posted August 05, 2002 10:32 PM
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Ok. I know that this discussion was a long time ago, but here it goes.
Names:
1. Gondobar = City of Stone to be replace by Gondost, which I assume is a more recent form of elvish.
2. Gondothlimbar = city of dwellers.
3. Gondolin = stone song.
4. Gwarestrin = Tower of Guard.
5. Gar Thurion = Secret Place. Ardholen and Garthurian = Fenced Realm
6. Loth = Flower.
7. Lothengrid = Flower that blooms on the plain.
I agree with obloquy suggestion to keep the unique names.
Why I don't see is why do we keep two names that mean flower Loth and Lothengrid, could we not use only one of those names and use also Ardholen = Fenced Realm.

Just my opinion. Elvish isn't my forte.

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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.


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Aiwendil
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posted August 06, 2002 09:40 AM
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The basis for keeping two "flower"-names is that both "Loth" and "Lothengriol" appear among the seven names in FG. "Lothengriol" was later changed to "Loth-a-ladwen", and I think we might want to change that to "Loth-a-laden" to fit later Sindarin. But since both names appear in the Tale, I'd rather keep both of them.

quote:
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Gondobar = City of Stone to be replace by Gondost, which I assume is a more recent form of elvish.
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Actually, Gondobar and Gondost are both valid Sindarin. Gondobar literally means "Stone-dwelling" while "Gondost" means "Stone-city". Of course, it's perfectly valid to translate "Gondobar" as "Stone-city". I think I agree with you that only one of these names (probably Gondost) should be used. The only objection I can see to this is that both names appear in the Etymologies, suggesting that they existed at the same time, and thus that "Gondost" was not simply a replacement for "Gondobar".


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Maédhros
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posted August 10, 2002 08:32 PM
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From the Book of Lost Tales 2: The Fall of Gondolin

quote:
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"We are the guardians of the issue of the Way of Escape. Rejoice that ye have found it, for behold before you the City of
Seven Names where all who war with Melko may find hope."
Then said Tuor: "What be those names?" And the chief of the Guard made answer: "'Tis said and 'tis sung: 'Gondobar am I called and Gondothlimbar, City of Stone and City of the Dwellers in Stone; Gondolin the Stone of Song and Gwarestrin am I named, the Tower of Guard, Gar Thurion or the Secret Place, for
I am hidden from the eyes of Melko; but they who love me most greatly call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even Lothengriol the
flower that blooms on the plain.' Yet," said he, "in our daily speech we speak and we name it mostly Gondolin."
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Original Names in FOG.
1. Gondobar = City of Stone.
2. Gondothlimbar = City of the Dwellers in Stone.
3. Gondolin = the Stone of Song.
4. Gwarestrin = the Tower of Guard.
5. Gar Thurion = the Secret Place.
6. Loth = Flower.
7. Lothengriol = the flower that blooms on the plain.
We have then the Etymologies:

quote:
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GOND- stone. Q ondo stone (as material); N gonn a great stone, or rock. [This original entry was retained, but the base was changed to GONOD-, GONDO-, and the following added:] Cf. Gondolin (see DUL); Gondobar (old Gondambar), Gonnobar = Stone of the World = Gondolin. Another name of Gondolin Gondost [OS], whence Gondothrim, Gondothrimbar. [Cf. Gondothlim, Gondothlimbar in the Lost Tales (II. 342.)]
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quote:
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I think I agree with you that only one of these names (probably Gondost) should be used. The only objection I can see to this is that both names appear in the Etymologies, suggesting that they existed at the same time, and thus that "Gondost" was not simply a replacement for "Gondobar".
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You're right, but names "must" be dismised if we are going to have only 7 names for Gondolin.
You might have the same problem with "Gonnobar", because it's also in the Etymologies.
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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.


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Aiwendil
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posted August 11, 2002 10:55 AM
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quote:
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You're right, but names "must" be dismised if we are going to have only 7 names for Gondolin.
You might have the same problem with "Gonnobar", because it's also in the Etymologies.
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Agreed. So I think the list of names that it currently looks like we'll use is:

Gondolin = "Stone song"

Gondost (or maybe Gondobar) = "Stone city"

Gondothrimbar (or maybe Gondolindrimbar) = "City of the dwellers in stone"

Garthoren = "Fenced fort"

Gwarestrin (or maybe Gwaraectrin) = "Tower of the guard"

Loth = "Flower"

Loth-a-ladwen (or maybe Loth-a-laden or Loth-en-laden) = "Lily of the plain"


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[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[lindil]

OK this along with the PRinciples thread debate should, I think be our foci.


UP!

[Aiwendil]

I have reviewed the changes here and have only one point of contention, concerning FG-T-15. I'm inclined to delete the whole discussion of the relative statures of Tuor and the Elves. I know that Jallanite made a case for including it, but I simply think the whole matter is too uncertain. Tuor might still be taller than any of the Elves present - or he might not. I would suggest going back to my original emendation; i.e., simply deleting the whole from "'Tis written" to "by love".

Other than that, I don't have any problems with this section. If anyone does have any suggestions or comments, we should probably deal with them now.

We seem to be agreed on the names of Gondolin - shall we have a vote on them?

[lindil]

re: names - it is filled w/ so many linguistic complexities that I know I really would not have much of a grasp of them and probably that goes for quite a few of us. Eruhen and maybe on or 2 others excepted. So I am willing to either let what we have stand, give Aiwendil my proxy or let those who really feel they have a good grasp of the issues vote. Assuming there is any disagreement among the linguists.


I second the 'size of Tuor/Elves' suggestion of Aiwendil.

I will have to look over the rest of the 2nd section asap.

[ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Eruhen]

I have no problems with the list of names as it stands now. As far as I can see, all the names fit into the Sindarin name structure.

As for the "stature of Tuor/Elves" thing, I agree that we should get rid of the whole discussion, as it makes no real difference to the way the story runs. Also, the fact that Tuor may still be taller than any of the Noldor that were assembled still stands. So, we should just get rid of it.

I know that I may sound like a yes-man, but I honestly believe that these should be done. So, if none of the other 'linguists' on this project have any objections, I think the name list should be settled once and for all. I don't care if it's on the private forum or out here, but I think it should just get finished, so we can move forward.

[Gimli the Dwarf]

Hi, I am new to this progect and have read through this. I think that it is fine.
I was also wondering...
Could we put the final version of the fall of Gondolin in a PDF download?

[Aiwendil]

It looks like no one has any further objections or corrections to the changes in this section. If anyone does, please speak up. If not, I think we are ready to close this section and move on to part 3. We should perhaps have a vote regarding the proposed 7 names of Gondolin, but I expect that no one has any real objections to those names as they now stand.

Unless there is some objection, I will post that vote in the private forum later today or tomorrow.

[lindil]

FG-T-13
... and marvelling at the stature and gaunt limbs of Tuor, {his heavy spear barbed with fish bone and} his great harp
I see now that "his heavy spear barbed with fish bone" must be deleted. From Tuor, describing Turor and Voronwë's setting out:
Tuor took with him the small bow and arrows that he had brought, beside the gear that he had taken from the hall; but his spear, upon which his name was written in the eleven[ sic]-runes of the North, he set upon the wall in token that he had passed.

lindil: I have reservations about the 'gaunt limbs' and 'and his locks were unkempt …'
JRRT had plenty of time to describe Tuor thus all through UT tuor but did not. Plus the idea that Voronwe might not have been reticent to bring someone who looked so disreputable before the King seems plausible, after all he wanted to stay alive. There is simpley nothing in UT Tuor that gives this 'unkempt' impression of Tuor.

Lindil: Is the harp realistic given that we are given so many details of the journey from Nevrast?

At the least the word 'great' seems to much. It seems impossible to imagine he and Voronwe hiding under brambles with a 'great harp' tucked under the cloak. Is it mentioned at all in after Nevrast? although I do not think it is mentioned that he left it either.

All that being said, I suppose eliminating 'great' would be the way to go.

FG-T-20- typo -
... Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and coursts [typo should be courts] amid ...


I must say Jallanite did a truly excellent job here, although it is hard to decipher it out of all of the [[}} and such. I look forward to seeing the cleaned up 'readers vesion'.

As for the vote on the names, I don't see the need really as no one has objected to the proposals in the slightest.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Aiwendil]

I agree regarding Tuor's "gaunt limbs" and "unkempt locks". Not that I think he was necessarily well-groomed at this point, having just endured quite a journey through the wilderness. But it seems out of keeping his description in the later 'Tuor', and to be on the safe side, I think we should omit it.

However, he definitely did have a harp. When he is passing down the Firth of Drengist he plays it, and his song is echoed by the Lammoth; page 26 in the Ballantine paperback UT. So I think we should keep that.

I also agree that a vote on the names would be going a bit overboard.

[Maédhros]

Should we have a vote on this part, or regard it as a finished section?

[lindil]

I say we call it finished if no one else objects.

Thanks for bringing it up M.

[Maédhros]

Petit details:

TO - refers to the brief notes given in note 59 to to the later Tuor in UT.

In my version of later Tuor in UT, the note is 31 not 59.

[Maédhros]

I'm just nitpicking here but I think that this needs revision:

FG-T-23
Then Turgon {king} [King] of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, /*TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol,*/

But if we see from the Shibboleth of Fëanor

Arakáno was the tallest of the brothers and the most impetuous, but his name was never changed to Sindarin form, for he perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks, the Battle of the Lammoth (but the Sindarin form Argon was often later given as a name by Ñoldor and Sindar in memory of his valour).

I think that because of this information, we should add also Turgon's brother name in there Argon. My enmendation would be therefore:

FG-T-23
Then Turgon {king} [King] of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, /*TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol [and Argon],*/

Are you ok with this Findegil and the Late Istar? I know that people might say that Argon was already dead at that time, but if you follow the story, Thingol had just been slained by the dwarves that invaded Doriath, so he was dead too.

[Aiwendil]

In my version of later Tuor in UT, the note is 31 not 59.

Sorry - it's page 59 in my edition, note 31.

Regarding Argon: I had thought that since Argon was dead, he wasn't being counted; but you make the good point that Thingol is killed in the previous chapter. However (and now we're being really pedantic) the arrival of Tuor in Gondolin actually takes place several years before the quarrel of Thingol and the Dwarves. Considering this, I think we are justified in omitting "Argon", and I would vote to do so as it sounds to me a bit awkward to include him (particularly since his role is so brief).

[Maédhros]

However (and now we're being really pedantic) the arrival of Tuor in Gondolin actually takes place several years before the quarrel of Thingol and the Dwarves. Considering this, I think we are justified in omitting "Argon", and I would vote to do so as it sounds to me a bit awkward to include him (particularly since his role is so brief).

Hmmmm. I'm not sure I agree with you there. While I'm aware that using Argon does indeed sounds awkward, and while it is true that he has been dead for a very long time and his rôle is very small, it is still a fact according to the Shibboleth of Fëanor that Argon was the tallest of the sons of Fingolfin. If we omit this, it is IMO that we would be telling a lie, if you will
unless if we were to disregard the information that he was the tallest of the brothers, but I see no reason to do so.
I have reread the principles again, and I do not see a principle contradiction that would disable our use of Argon.
Also, he was the brother of Turgon too, so it would be more obvious.

[Aiwendil]

My thinking is that "tallest of all the Children of the World" can be interpreted either as "tallest of all the Children of the World that ever lived" or as "tallest of all the Children of the World at that time". You interpret it in the first way, and I see no reason not to. But I also don't see any reason not to interpret it the second way - and when it's interpreted that way, it's not a lie.

I really do think that "tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol and Argon" sounds somewhat silly. I can't help but think of Monty Python (Tallest of all the Children of the World. Save Thingol. Second tallest of the Children of the world, after Thingol - oh, and Argon. Third - third tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol, Argon, and . . .)

Obviously this is not justification for changing a fact, but given the ambiguity in the sentence, I think we are at liberty to omit Argon.

If the general opinion is that we do not have that liberty, then I think the sentence will have to go. Tolkien has a lot of "greatest X"s and "greatest X save Y"s but I can't think of a single "greatest X save Y and Z".

[Maédhros]

This is where having more members, who do not necessarily need to be a Silmarillion expert, would be very useful.
There is another part that would need to be changed also, there is this part in which it is told that Penlod is the tallest of the Gnomes. Our emendation was :
tallest of the Ñoldor save Turgon, but we could use tallest of the Gondolindrim, save Turgon.
I think that this way we avoid the previous problem. What do you think?

[Aiwendil]

Good catch. Before you know it we'll have a complete list of all Children of Iluvatar sorted by height.

I could go with "tallest of the Gondolindrim, save Turgon". It certainly doesn't have the same ring to it as "tallest of the Gnomes", but it's bearable.

I take it you would still vote against calling Turgon "tallest save Thingol". But do you agree about deleting the sentence in that case or would you retain it?

Findegil - if Maedhros and I are deadlocked, perhaps you could be the tie-breaking vote?

[Maédhros]

How about this suggestion so that we can both be in peace?
What if we use as we did in the Ainulindalë, a footnote that states that Argon, the brother of Turgon was taller than he, and we keep in our main text: Turgon "tallest save Thingol".

I think it might be a good compromise.

[Findegil]

First of all, I also agree to "grates among the Gondolindrim save Turgon". So the case of Penlod is dealt with.

Know we turn to Turgon and the scene with Tuor speaking the message. What we discuss is a hastily written note. The essence of it is to emphasis that Turgon is seen as greatest among the company assemble. That he was, at the time that the note was written, really considered as the second greatest of men and elves ever is an information that is no longer valid (since we know Argon and Thingol were greater). I agree with Aiwendil that a list of the tallest children of Eru is out of question; it doesn't sounds a bit like Tolkien. If we like to provide the fact that Thingol was the greatest we must do that in some other place. (By the way: we can even not be absolutely sure that Thingol was considered greater than Argon any longer.)
For a bit of a second I thought of calling Turgon "tall among the children of the World". But that does also sound not really good.
I don't want cut the sentence out since it does provide something to the picture. Why don't we go the same way as we did with Penlod? That would mean to change the group addressed in the comparison? At least we could call Turgon "tallest of the Gondolindrim." And we might even find a better group. What's about "tallest of the children of the World of this time save Thingol"?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

For a bit of a second I thought of calling Turgon "tall among the children of the World". But that does also sound not really good.
I don't want cut the sentence out since it does provide something to the picture. Why don't we go the same way as we did with Penlod? That would mean to change the group addressed in the comparison? At least we could call Turgon "tallest of the Gondolindrim." And we might even find a better group. What's about "tallest of the children of the World of this time save Thingol"?

The problem is that at that time, Thingol was already dead. For me it is out of the question to use again ""tallest of the Gondolindrim", simply because we have used it before. I would rather stick with my compromise with the footnote.

I would like to propose the following:
Originally FG-T-23 is:

.{"}[']<QS77 {and}[And] upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son, but upon his left hand sat Idril Celebrindal his daughter> <TO {and that it was to be emphasized, either when Tuor first set eyes upon Idril or at some earlier point, that} [and at the sight of her Tuor marvelled, for] he had known or even seen few woment in his life. Most of the women and all the children of Annael's company in Mithrim were sent away south; and as a thrall Tuor had seen only the proud and barbarous women of the Easterlings, who treated him as a beast, or the unhappy slaves forced to labour from childhood, for whom he had only pity.>

I would like to add to it, this bit of the LQ2 already proposed by jallanite i think:
FG-T-23:

[']<QS77 {and}[And] upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son, but upon his left hand sat Idril Celebrindal his daughter < LQ2 [,whose hair was as the gold of Laurelin ere the coming of Morgoth. ]>> <TO {and that it was to be emphasized, either when Tuor first set eyes upon Idril or at some earlier point, that} [At the sight of her Tuor marvelled, for] he had known or even seen few woment in his life. Most of the women and all the children of Annael's company in Mithrim were sent away south; and as a thrall Tuor had seen only the proud and barbarous women of the Easterlings, who treated him as a beast, or the unhappy slaves forced to labour from childhood, for whom he had only pity.>

What do you think?

[Findegil]

I agree upon your proposed addition for FG-T-23.

But I don't agree on the footnote thing for the tall Turgon. I think we have to be spares as possible with footnotes. I know that I have just given that advise myself for the Horns of Yilmir, but that is a different case. In the case of the poem we would use the note to show an additional beautiful text, here we would rather use it to correct an at least misleading passage in the main text. What makes this eve worth is that the text to be corrected by a footnote is an editorial addition by our self! In the end I lean more too Aiwendils solution to cut the sentence out, if we cannot find a satisfying solution.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros wrote:

The problem is that at that time, Thingol was already dead.

Not exactly - perhaps it got missed, but I pointed out above that, although Thingol's death has already been told in the previous chapter, Tuor's arrival in Gondolin actually takes place before Thingol's death. Unless I've miscalculated, Tuor arrives in Gondolin in 496 and Thingol dies in 503.

Perhaps we could use a modification of Findegil's proposal - "tallest of the living Children of the World, save Thingol" or "tallest living Child of the World, save Thingol".

If not, then I definitely think we should delete the sentence.

I hesitate to make the addition from LQ2 concerning Idril's hair. My only reason is that I think we ought to use it instead in the section on the Building of Gondolin, where it is in LQ2 - and I do not think we should use exactly the same sentence in two places. I suppose we could delete it from the Building of Gondolin and put it in here, but I don't think we should move text around like that without a very good reason.

[Maédhros]

I would be ok using:
Then Turgon {king} [King] of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, <TO tallest of all the [living] Children of the World, save Thingol,>

Are you guys ok with that then?

Originally posted by Aiwendil
I hesitate to make the addition from LQ2 concerning Idril's hair. My only reason is that I think we ought to use it instead in the section on the Building of Gondolin, where it is in LQ2 - and I do not think we should use exactly the same sentence in two places. I suppose we could delete it from the Building of Gondolin and put it in here, but I don't think we should move text around like that without a very good reason.

How did I know that you were going to say something like that. I think that if we used that in the earlier section, it should not be used exactly here. I wonder if we could get away mentioning her hair colour or if it would be better to delete the reference.

[Findegil]

I am okay with "Then Turgon {king} [King] of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, <TO tallest of all the [living] Children of the World, save Thingol,>".

But I understand and agree with Aiwendils reasons against the blond hair addition to FG-T-23. In my first post I was not aware were you toke that from. (I should have been, sorry for that.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros wrote:

I would be ok using:
Then Turgon {king} [King] of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, <TO tallest of all the [living] Children of the World, save Thingol,>

Are you guys ok with that then?

Looks good to me.

How did I know that you were going to say something like that. I think that if we used that in the earlier section, it should not be used exactly here. I wonder if we could get away mentioning her hair colour or if it would be better to delete the reference.

Yes - I suppose I can be a bit predictable.

I don't really see a need to insert mention of her hair color here; if it would come down to inventing a sentence that says that her hair is golden, I'm inclined not to do it. I think that lately we've been unconsciously straying toward greater freedom in terms of creative writing than we previously intended.

The relevant principle here is:

6. The actual words used by J.R.R. Tolkien or the editor or summarizer of his work may only be changed, including change by deletion or addition, when:
a) they are minimally changed to agree with statements elsewhere in the canon recognized as of greater validity or are replaced with words or phrases from later or alternate restatements of the same material for reasons of consistancy or are changed to agree with alternate phrasings used by Tolkien of the same or better validity
b) they are minimally changed to avoid great awkwardness of expression such as ungrammatical constructions or too great a difference in style from the passage or section/chapter into which they are now to be inserted.
c) they are minimally added to in order to expand a sentence fragments or an incomplete phrase into a construction that fits grammatically in the new environment
d) they are deleted to avoid redundancy in new passages compiled from more than one source
e) they are, in verse passages, minimal changes that do not add new information to the tale, to maintain the proper metre and rhyme or alliterative pattern of the original verse.


I don't think that a sentence describing Idril's hair is justifiable under any of those.

[Maédhros]

Does that means that we are done with this part then?

[Aiwendil]

If we are agreed on removing the reference from LQ2, then I'd say yes, we're done with this part.

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
If we are agreed on removing the reference from LQ2, then I'd say yes, we're done with this part.

Yes, I agree with that.