Why does Gandalf have the third elf ring? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

03-04-2004, 03:55 PM

Ok, i just finished reading LotR for the second time, and i noticed something i missed the first time through. Gandalf is wearing the Third elf ring. WHY?!!!! Why would he have it. He's not an elf, he's a wizard, or an Istiri, if i'm not mistaken. Did he always have it? How did he get it? Someone please let me understand.

Aiwendil · 03-04-2004, 04:12 PM

It was given to him by Cirdan the Shipwright, apparently because he recognized Gandalf's wisdom and foresaw that Gandalf would make better use of it than anyone else.

Silmiel of Imladris · 03-04-2004, 04:42 PM

Didn't Gandalf give it back to Cirdan before he crossed into the west? Or am I mistaken?

The Perky Ent · 03-04-2004, 05:41 PM

No, i'm pretty sure that the three rings passed on from Middle Earth. That's why Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf all went, besides the fact that they could. Yes, the ring would probably be in Valinor!

juhsstin · 03-04-2004, 06:28 PM

correct me if i'm wrong, but the rings have lost all their power now that the one ring was destroyed, right?

Boromir88 · 03-04-2004, 07:14 PM

Yes, Gandalf was given Narya by Cirdan. Why? I really don't know maybe they became good friends. And also, Gandalf still has Narya didn't give it back to Cirdan.

Juhsstin, to answer your question, yes when the one ring was destroyed the 3 elven rings lost their powers. Sauron didn't make the 3 elven rings but he made the one to rule all the rings so when the one was destroyed the 3 lost their powers.

03-04-2004, 07:38 PM

when the wizards came to middle-earth, there were five of them,
Gandalf
Saruman
Radaghast
and 2 blue wizards who do not come into the tale.

Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf because he sensed that gandalf was the mightiest of all 5 and would need some extra help in the times to come. Everything is said in the Unfinished Tales.

Boromir88 · 03-04-2004, 07:42 PM

heir_of_isildur

that makes sense, that Cirdan would give his ring to Gandalf because he was the most "trustful wizard." After all Gandalf was the only one who completed his task by aiding the peoples of middle earth.

The 2 blue wizards are Allatar and Pallando all I know about them is they went into Rhun and started up cults. Just some info there.

Frodo Baggins · 03-04-2004, 07:42 PM

This is why Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf. it says that Cirdan saw deeper than any other in Middle-earth and knew who Gandalf was and where he came from and where he was going. (i.e. Olorin wisest of all Maia)

' "Take this ring, Master" he said, "for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will awit you." '

Check the Appendicies, the tale of years, the Thrid Age.

Silmiel of Imladris · 03-05-2004, 10:30 AM

If the rings lost their power than why were they still so important to the elves? I do believe that things have symbolic value in a culture, but was there another reason the elves kept them?

bilbo_baggins · 03-05-2004, 12:01 PM

In answer to Silmiel's question: The elves had probably grown attached to the objects they had held for almost, what is it, over 500 years. Widows or widowers sometimes hold on to the ring of their marriage that recently ended to remind them of it. And besides, don't you think it would be wise to keep it with you in case they were to be the object of attempts to gain power?

Eorl of Rohan · 03-05-2004, 10:37 PM

Hm... That brings up again the matter I was wondering about. How did Cridan know that Olorin was the LAST wizard to come across? The wizards came separately. He had only one Narya, and if someone mightier then Mithrandir comes along...

Fingolfin II · 03-06-2004, 12:32 AM

Some one did come along who was originally greater than Gandalf; Saruman. But Cirdan 'saw further and deeper than anyone else in middle-earth' (can't remember exact quote) and perceived that Olorin was the greatest overall. His foresight would have seen that no one else greater would come along. Also, Gandalf might have told him that he was the last one to come.

NightKnight · 03-06-2004, 10:48 AM

Quote:

In answer to Silmiel's question: The elves had probably grown attached to the objects they had held for almost, what is it, over 500 years.

Small correction: They had had them for around 4500 years.

As for the question, why not take them along? What were they supposed to do, just leave them in ME? They didn't have a reason not to bring them across the sea.

03-06-2004, 10:50 AM

i dont think that saruman was ever greater than gandalf at all, and that is was percieved that he was. but then again, saruman came from the same guy who made sauron

Fingolfin II · 03-06-2004, 08:14 PM

heir_of_isildur- Sauron and Saruman came from Aule, but Aule did not make them. Eru did.

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 03-07-2004, 09:41 AM

Let's get back to the question though.

The ownership of the Narya had been passed from Cirdan to Gandalf voluntarily. But, have we ever looked at it from the perscpective of the Ring itself?

Quote:

"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it."

This is what Gandalf said of the One Ring. But note that he meant it in singular, which can be taken as a general statement refering to ALL Rings of Power. Doubtless, the Three Rings were not made by Sauron, but they could definitely have the same characteristics as all other rings of power. If the Nine Rings made by Sauron and the One Ring granted lengthened Lifespan and Invisiblity, the Three Rings granted Wisdom and Strength. But that did not eliminate the possibilty of them looking after itself and seeking them master.

I believe that Narya, being a Righteous Ring, voluntarily "allowed" itself to be given to Gandalf. Cirdan's transfer of ownership just legitimized the transaction.

rutslegolas · 03-08-2004, 07:29 AM

ya i do believe the elven rings could have characteristics of their own nothing is mentioned about them by tolkein.

but they could be treacherous to their masters i believe for they were made with the power of truth and wisdom.

i think others will know better than me can anyone else say about this?

Lalwendë · 03-08-2004, 02:29 PM

I like to think, though it's just speculation, that as Gandalf came from Valinor, Cirdan might have had some kind of 'insider information', maybe from one of the Maiar or Valar who ruled the oceans.

As an aside, I was reading the other day that Narya was rumoured to be made from one of the Silmarils, which is how it attained the power of fire. Again, this might be pure speculation?!

Boromir 88 - can you tell me where you found this info on the other 2 Istari? I keep looking for things about them, so if you can remember where you found it, that would be great!

Quote:

Originally posted by Boromir88
heir_of_isildur

The 2 blue wizards are Allatar and Pallando all I know about them is they went into Rhun and started up cults. Just some info there.

Balin999 · 03-11-2004, 04:47 PM

Quote:

i dont think that saruman was ever greater than gandalf at all, and that is was percieved that he was. but then again, saruman came from the same guy who made sauron

Saruman was greater than Gandalf, because he was the "White". For example, Gandalf asks him for council in the matter of the ring and respects him very much.
Second, Saruman was Head of the White Council (allthough Galadriel wanted Gandalf to be head/chief, whatever).
After Gandalf is revived and returns to Middle-Earth, he is Gandalf the White and brakes Saruman's staff and commands him to come back to his window. He even says that he is in a way Saruman, and he is more powerful than before, so that clearly points out that Saruman was (in the beginning of the story) "greater" or wiser/mightier than Gandalf.

Osse · 03-11-2004, 10:02 PM

In reply to an above post, if I remember correctly, Cirdan had correspondance with both Ulmo and Osse... two of the most sympathetic and involved Ainur towards those who still dwelt in ME... it's therefore not inconseivable that Cirdan had at least some information about the coming Istari. Good point about the Three possibly having 'minds' or 'wills' of their own, perhaps Narya itself spurred Cirdan's desire to give the ring to Olorin.
Also... what about the two stones of the White Towers (the Tower Hills stones) Their fate was never clearly put out... is it possible Cirdan made use of them to survey the sea (as that is the only view that they share) and thus gained knowledge of the Istari's coming. Were the Istari clad in the bodies of old men before or after arrival at the Havens... were they sent out already in their wizend raiment? Cirdan possessed fantastic foresight and insight into the minds of others, he could recognize true power when he sees it; rather than that of Saruman-self righteousness and the spell of his voice... seeming powerful but not truly as powerful (or incapable of actually USING that power in his state of mind) as he seems. Cirdan is an intriguing character that I wish tolkien had written more upon. Who knows what really spurred him to present Gandalf with Narya?

PS: the information concerning the other two of the istari (Alatar and Pallando) is available in Unfinished Tales... also you may find something here: Encyclopedia of Arda- under Istari

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 03-12-2004, 07:23 AM

Talking of Rings on Wizards, Saruman had a Ring too!

Quote:

'But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.

This ring that Saruman wore is obviously of his own manufacture, for he boasted of it to Gandalf:

Quote:

For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!

Did Saruman know that Narya was with Gandalf all the while? I don't think so... Yet, is it not significant: that two wizards should have Rings on their fingers, the weaker one blatantly flaunting his power while the stronger concealed his.

P.S. What did Saruman made his own Ring for? Decoration? My, men are becoming more vain each day...

NightKnight · 03-12-2004, 07:24 AM

Two stones in the Tower Hills? Wasn't there only one? And it was put on the Ship of the Ringbearers when it sailed across the Sea.

rutslegolas · 03-12-2004, 07:50 AM

ya it had only one stone

and talking about saruman's ring what was it ,i mean what were its powers??

does anyone have any idea??

bilbo_baggins · 03-24-2004, 09:31 PM

What power was most apparent in Saruman? The power to control Men, of course. Saruman always kept that power. Why not copy Sauron, who was quickly becoming his role model of a sort, and pour his own inherent power into the ring of his fashioning? Saruman's ring might well have had the power to control men.

Hope this is an acceptable answer, as I am no lore-master...

Orophin · 04-25-2004, 05:41 PM

At the time that the Istatri cam over from the Undying lands Cirdan was still a major leader in the elven world. He had a lot of fore sight and gave the ring to Gandalf because he thouyght that it would be better used with him. Apparenty he was right because Galadrial felt the same way with the white counsel. She wanted Gandalf to be head of it and not Sauraman. And eventually Sauraman turned evil.

03-04-2004, 03:55 PM	#1
abaddon667 Guest Posts: n/a	Why does Gandalf have the third elf ring? Ok, i just finished reading LotR for the second time, and i noticed something i missed the first time through. Gandalf is wearing the Third elf ring. WHY?!!!! Why would he have it. He's not an elf, he's a wizard, or an Istiri, if i'm not mistaken. Did he always have it? How did he get it? Someone please let me understand.

03-04-2004, 04:42 PM	#3
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	Didn't Gandalf give it back to Cirdan before he crossed into the west? Or am I mistaken? __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

03-04-2004, 05:41 PM	#4
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	No, i'm pretty sure that the three rings passed on from Middle Earth. That's why Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf all went, besides the fact that they could. Yes, the ring would probably be in Valinor! __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

03-04-2004, 07:14 PM	#6
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Elven Rings Yes, Gandalf was given Narya by Cirdan. Why? I really don't know maybe they became good friends. And also, Gandalf still has Narya didn't give it back to Cirdan. Juhsstin, to answer your question, yes when the one ring was destroyed the 3 elven rings lost their powers. Sauron didn't make the 3 elven rings but he made the one to rule all the rings so when the one was destroyed the 3 lost their powers.

03-04-2004, 07:38 PM	#7
heir_of_isildur0 Guest Posts: n/a	when the wizards came to middle-earth, there were five of them, Gandalf Saruman Radaghast and 2 blue wizards who do not come into the tale. Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf because he sensed that gandalf was the mightiest of all 5 and would need some extra help in the times to come. Everything is said in the Unfinished Tales. Last edited by Legolas; 03-04-2004 at 08:10 PM.

03-04-2004, 04:12 PM	#2
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	It was given to him by Cirdan the Shipwright, apparently because he recognized Gandalf's wisdom and foresaw that Gandalf would make better use of it than anyone else.

03-04-2004, 06:28 PM	#5
juhsstin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 20	correct me if i'm wrong, but the rings have lost all their power now that the one ring was destroyed, right?

03-04-2004, 07:42 PM	#8
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	makes sense heir_of_isildur that makes sense, that Cirdan would give his ring to Gandalf because he was the most "trustful wizard." After all Gandalf was the only one who completed his task by aiding the peoples of middle earth. The 2 blue wizards are Allatar and Pallando all I know about them is they went into Rhun and started up cults. Just some info there.

03-04-2004, 07:42 PM	#9
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	This is why Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf. it says that Cirdan saw deeper than any other in Middle-earth and knew who Gandalf was and where he came from and where he was going. (i.e. Olorin wisest of all Maia) ' "Take this ring, Master" he said, "for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will awit you." ' Check the Appendicies, the tale of years, the Thrid Age. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

03-05-2004, 10:30 AM	#10
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	Why did they keep them? If the rings lost their power than why were they still so important to the elves? I do believe that things have symbolic value in a culture, but was there another reason the elves kept them? __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

03-05-2004, 12:01 PM	#11
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	In answer to Silmiel's question: The elves had probably grown attached to the objects they had held for almost, what is it, over 500 years. Widows or widowers sometimes hold on to the ring of their marriage that recently ended to remind them of it. And besides, don't you think it would be wise to keep it with you in case they were to be the object of attempts to gain power? __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."

03-05-2004, 10:37 PM	#12
Eorl of Rohan Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seoul, South Korea Posts: 602	Hm... That brings up again the matter I was wondering about. How did Cridan know that Olorin was the LAST wizard to come across? The wizards came separately. He had only one Narya, and if someone mightier then Mithrandir comes along... __________________ There is no signature here.

03-06-2004, 12:32 AM	#13
Fingolfin II Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Where you want me to be Posts: 1,036	Some one did come along who was originally greater than Gandalf; Saruman. But Cirdan 'saw further and deeper than anyone else in middle-earth' (can't remember exact quote) and perceived that Olorin was the greatest overall. His foresight would have seen that no one else greater would come along. Also, Gandalf might have told him that he was the last one to come. __________________ Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.

03-06-2004, 10:50 AM	#15
heir_of_isildur0 Guest Posts: n/a	i dont think that saruman was ever greater than gandalf at all, and that is was percieved that he was. but then again, saruman came from the same guy who made sauron

03-06-2004, 08:14 PM	#16
Fingolfin II Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Where you want me to be Posts: 1,036	heir_of_isildur- Sauron and Saruman came from Aule, but Aule did not make them. Eru did. __________________ Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.

03-08-2004, 07:29 AM	#18
rutslegolas Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In Elven Lands of India Posts: 533	ya i do believe the elven rings could have characteristics of their own nothing is mentioned about them by tolkein. but they could be treacherous to their masters i believe for they were made with the power of truth and wisdom. i think others will know better than me can anyone else say about this? __________________ If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with the bull - The Phantom.

03-11-2004, 10:02 PM	#21
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	In reply to an above post, if I remember correctly, Cirdan had correspondance with both Ulmo and Osse... two of the most sympathetic and involved Ainur towards those who still dwelt in ME... it's therefore not inconseivable that Cirdan had at least some information about the coming Istari. Good point about the Three possibly having 'minds' or 'wills' of their own, perhaps Narya itself spurred Cirdan's desire to give the ring to Olorin. Also... what about the two stones of the White Towers (the Tower Hills stones) Their fate was never clearly put out... is it possible Cirdan made use of them to survey the sea (as that is the only view that they share) and thus gained knowledge of the Istari's coming. Were the Istari clad in the bodies of old men before or after arrival at the Havens... were they sent out already in their wizend raiment? Cirdan possessed fantastic foresight and insight into the minds of others, he could recognize true power when he sees it; rather than that of Saruman-self righteousness and the spell of his voice... seeming powerful but not truly as powerful (or incapable of actually USING that power in his state of mind) as he seems. Cirdan is an intriguing character that I wish tolkien had written more upon. Who knows what really spurred him to present Gandalf with Narya? PS: the information concerning the other two of the istari (Alatar and Pallando) is available in Unfinished Tales... also you may find something here: Encyclopedia of Arda- under Istari __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.' Last edited by Osse; 03-11-2004 at 10:11 PM.

03-12-2004, 07:24 AM	#23
NightKnight Lost among the Stars Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden) Posts: 2,690	Two stones in the Tower Hills? Wasn't there only one? And it was put on the Ship of the Ringbearers when it sailed across the Sea. __________________ There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.

03-12-2004, 07:50 AM	#24
rutslegolas Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In Elven Lands of India Posts: 533	ya it had only one stone and talking about saruman's ring what was it ,i mean what were its powers?? does anyone have any idea?? __________________ If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with the bull - The Phantom.

03-24-2004, 09:31 PM	#25
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	To rutslegolas What power was most apparent in Saruman? The power to control Men, of course. Saruman always kept that power. Why not copy Sauron, who was quickly becoming his role model of a sort, and pour his own inherent power into the ring of his fashioning? Saruman's ring might well have had the power to control men. Hope this is an acceptable answer, as I am no lore-master... __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."

04-25-2004, 05:41 PM	#26
Orophin Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 48	Cirdan gave it to him At the time that the Istatri cam over from the Undying lands Cirdan was still a major leader in the elven world. He had a lot of fore sight and gave the ring to Gandalf because he thouyght that it would be better used with him. Apparenty he was right because Galadrial felt the same way with the white counsel. She wanted Gandalf to be head of it and not Sauraman. And eventually Sauraman turned evil.