Nebulous "It" and Absolutes

[davem]

What we don't (or I don't) know is whether Frodo would have willingly made the sacrifice he did, if he had known the ultimate outcome. Journeying to the Undying Lands would not, at the beginning, have been enough to persuade Frodo to undertake the task. If Gandalf had told him 'you'll lose everything, including yourself, everything you love, & your possibly your sanity, but you'll save the Shire & get to go into the West & live with the Elves for a while before you die', I can't see Frodo thinking 'Whoo, yeah! I'll have some of that! Where do I sign up?'

But at some point before the end, had he decided the price was worth worth paying, & was the journey up the Mountain done in full concious awareness of what he was doing - before he broke & surrendered? If not, then what kind of God or fate could force him into that position of loss - not a loving one, or possibly one who 'loved the world', but not Frodo himself very much.

Or perhaps it was only afterward, when it was all over, that he could say, 'OK, I was forced into it, I have had everything that matters to me snatched away, & I'm left with this hole in me which is going to swallow me up, but I can now see it was worth it'

Or maybe, in the end, he just had to accept that that is just 'the way things are in the world' - which for a short line is a horrible summation of our position. Thinking about that, its one of the most devastating ideas I've ever come across - Frodo goes through Hell, is destroyed by it, & in the end he says - 'That's just the way life is'. This is either despair on an unimaginable level, or its a final, desperate attempt to impose meaning on horror. Frodo is asked to do too much, & he isn't told what he is being required to sacrifice. This says something about the world & our place in it that I find deeply disturbing.

[Firefoot]

This is either despair on an unimaginable level, or its a final, desperate attempt to impose meaning on horror.

I do not agree with either of these two points. Like Child, I believe that Frodo had some hope, hope of peace and healing. Despair is only for those who have no hope. On the same lines, if Frodo had hope, then there would not be that horror, because Frodo did not utterly lose everything because he had hope.

Frodo could not have known what he would go through when he volunteered to take the Ring in Rivendell. He might have had some sketchy idea, but he still believed that he would be able to go home and live in the Shire in peace when it was all over. Had he known what he would go through, perhaps he would be in somewhat of the same situation as Merry and Pippin as Gandalf describes for Elrond:

It is true that if these hobbits understood the danger, they would not dare to go. But they would still wish to go, or wish that they dared and be shamed and unhappy.

Not exactly the same, but rather than 'danger' perhaps 'sacrifice'. It still doesn't go just right, but generally makes my point.

But the point is that even though Frodo did not realize it at first, he changed; realized the sacrifice that he would have to pay for the world to be saved. I believe he understood this, at least to a small point, when they realized there would not be enough food for them to get back. There could be no going back. Frodo and Sam had plenty of options to turn back, but they didn't, even realizing full well that if they didn't, they wouldn't go back. There came a point when they figured their task was to accomplish the Quest and die. But even in this, I believe Frodo had hope - not for himself, but for the whole of Middle-earth: that if he could cast the Ring away then the world would be saved. He accepted his task just the same when he was in Mordor as he did in Rivendell.

Or perhaps it was only afterward, when it was all over, that he could say, 'OK, I was forced into it, I have had everything that matters to me snatched away, & I'm left with this hole in me which is going to swallow me up, but I can now see it was worth it'

Frodo wasn't forced into it though. He was willing to make the sacrifice. At the end he suffered devastating loss and pain, but he did see that it had been worth it.

"But," said Sam, and tears started in his eyes, " I thought you were going to enjoy the Shire, too, for years and years, after all you have done."
"So I thought too, once. But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that otherrs may keep them.

It seems that Frodo was very accepting of his loss, and I believe that this is for two reasons: that he was able to see the Shire and Sam safe and in peace, and because he had hope that there still might be peace and healing for himself in some way.

[Dininziliel]

"What if they'd known what would happen" type questions are ultimately only an intellectual exercise that lead to Nietzschian voids if one does not pull out in time! At any rate, if it were possible to know the future, then we'd be in another reality and none of the premises of LotR would work.

Regarding the horror of going through hell to save the world/others only to reap the void . . .

Tolkien's tales are very much concerned with the Fall--which I characterize as the [vain] attempt to put personal self above God/Eru, nature, others. What dooms the Elves if not their attempt to stop time & tide (what Tolkien calls "embalming")? What was the original Fall if not Melkor trying to be Sinatra and do things his way? (Hmmm, wonder where that came from!)

I think in LotR and The Silmarillion we see where that sense of personal self leads--fear & loss. Two examples are: (1) fear of death, which was intended as a blessed gift from the "long defeat" and all forms of weariness, and, ironically, (2) inevitable loss of self. (Two examples that come readily to mind are Ar-Pharazon & Gollum, respectively.) Perhaps by the time Frodo returned to the Shire his "void" was the suspension between utter loss of self and whatever it was that the Ring did not take, as Davem so insightfully asked. Frodo was both in and out of light/darkness = "grey."

The horror comes from not trusting Eru's will and Love. Look at the results starting from the Valar (calling for the Elves to return to Valinor setting off a chain of events in The Silmarillion) to Frodo, who innocently (?) & unselfishly took on the Ring and was inevitably ensnared by it. (I can't recall now whose tag line this was, but it says it all perfectly--"Frodo could not live with having failed at an impossible task.")

We need not fear if we have sufficient faith in Eru's will; what Tolkien does so well is to show us how to walk through this "fallen" world where such faith is so hard to come by. No matter how complete the darkness seems, there is always light (darkness cannot exist without it!), and the most wonderful thing is that even the smallest amount of light can be enough--thus, there is always hope! Why? Because that's the way Eru made it be. The real world is in the invisible; this is inherent in the stories, and stated by their author.

[davem]

But Firefoot, Frodo goes through all that, loses everything, & then says to Sam, that's how things are in the world - what does that mean? He can only be saying the world is like that. Sometimes life (or God) requires some of us to sacrifice ourselves - our entire selves, so that others can be saved. Some of us have to be lost so that others can be found, & that's what's happened with me. I've lost everything so that you can go on living. My life for yours, my happiness for yours, my peace for yours, my hope for yours.

Has he given those things willingly, or have they been taken from him. Was there a point in his journey where he made that sacrifice willingly? Or did 'the way things are in the world' simply conspire to take them from him, whether he would or not? And was it then down to him to find a way to live with that? Did the Universe or God or whatever, simply say, 'I need this doing & Frodo will have to do it, whatever becomes of him - the task is necessary, so he will have to perform it'? And even if in the end he does 'give them up', was that simply because he knew he would lose them anyway. His claiming of the Ring at the end calls into question his real willingness to give up those things.

We don't know - each reader will decide for themselves, according to their own feelings & beliefs. We don't know, because we don't know what happened to Frodo once the ship passed out into the West. As I said, Sam must have written the account of Frodo coming to the Undying Lands - because no-one could have told him what really happened.

If we believe in a loving God, then we can hope (but not prove) that he got back everything he lost - & possibly more. But the Story doesn't say that's what happened. It holds out only the hope that he did. No guarantees. Its down to trust, in the end, apparently the more accurate translation of 'estel'.

What does it really mean to say that things are that way in the world? Is it acceptance, resignation, or despair. Hope in things beyond the world is not the same as hope within the world. Perhaps Frodo had some hope (given to him, or maybe left to him, by Illuvatar) beyond the world, but I don't see that he had any hope within the world. The world is taken from him, or he gives it up,& without the world there can be no hope within the world, so no hope for himself. Estel is hope in cosmic things, not in woods, fields & little rivers, in a pipe & a pint in the Green Dragon.

'It' is lost, & 'it' is everything a mortal in the world can find peace & happiness in. We may be made for Heaven, but we're born into the world, & our real joys are little ones. Cosmic joy sounds very nice, but most of us think of Heaven as as a place where we can enjoy those little things that made us happy here, & be with those we love. Apart from the theologians & the mystics, most of us are not drawn to an eternity of Heavenly choirs & the beatific vision of God. Even our Heaven is a little place - Niggle's Parish. We can only hope that in the end Frodo found himself there.

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by davem

But Firefoot, Frodo goes through all that, loses everything, & then says to Sam, that's how things are in the world - what does that mean? He can only be saying the world is like that. Sometimes life (or God) requires some of us to sacrifice ourselves - our entire selves, so that others can be saved. Some of us have to be lost so that others can be found, & that's what's happened with me. I've lost everything so that you can go on living. My life for yours, my happiness for yours, my peace for yours, my hope for yours.

Has he given those things willingly, or have they been taken from him. Was there a point in his journey where he made that sacrifice willingly?

Frodo made this choice willingly. He had many chances to turn back or to give up. Perhaps he did not understand the consequences of his actions; but either way he did them willingly.
Perhaps I say "willingly" to hastily. Frodo was, in a way, compelled to fulfill his Quest. But there were no outward forces compelling him; instead, there was a desire to save the world, a fear of what would happen if he did not succeed, and a nobleness that drove him to do it for the sake of the world.
Perhaps, too, he realized that the Ring would wreck his life whatever he did- for if he had not left on the Quest, he would have been consumed by it and Middle-earth would have fallen- and thought that he might as well save the world. This is a rather simplistic view, but I see Frodo's situation not as an unwilling sacrifice, but a "lesser of two evils". True, the two evils are both forced on him by the world- but no one has complete control of their lives.
On a related note, what indicates that Frodo was miserable or deep depression? My impression of the end of RotK is that he is merely changed. Remember Elrond's quote "He may become like a glass filled with light" at Rivendell? My feeling is that Frodo had changed, become more elf-like and like a "glass filled with light" and so was more suited for life over the Sea- but I don't think he was necessarily unhappy in the Shire.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Firefoot - I liked your post.

Would Frodo willingly have made the sacrifice he did if he had known the outcome?

Davem ---- The cold truth is that none of us know the outcome when we agree to stick our neck out and venture on a new course. This is certainly true of a situation like Frodo's where a person does something because he is asked and he believes it to be "right". He feels compelled to do it to protect that which he loves. But it is even true of other situations in life. As Bilbo said, when you step out onto the Road, you are never certain where it might take you. You might decide to learn something new, to give your trust to someone, or perhaps to start a family. In effect, you are walking into the great unknown because none of us has the slightest idea how anything is going to turn out. We are asked to go forward on faith or hope or "estel", whatever term you prefer to use, trying to make the best choices we can. And sometimes, despite all we do, all our best efforts, our world is broken, and we are asked to deal with the results.

Frodo was in this boat. And he was certainly unique in having to face all the combined evil in the world. But in another sense, he is an "everyman", whether we look at the sad lessons of history or even each other's personal lives. So many of us are asked to deal with the unthinkable at some point: to come to grips with something that rocks us to the core. I think this is one reason we can identify with what Frodo is feeling, although the cause of his loss and suffering is different than what we have faced.

In this sense, Davem, I feel that the question you've raised is artificial. Your question simply can't be answered as long as we are mere mortals. No one, but no one, has this kind of assurance or foreknowledge: not Frodo, nor any of us.

Also, regarding your statement that there could never be any rebirth for the "old" Frodo. I totally agree with you. If and when healing comes, Frodo will be a different Hobbit. He can't go backward: it's simply impossible. But there is the possibility that he can find healing and peace and go beyond what he was before in the Shire. Somewhere in Tolkien's writings, perhaps his Letters (?), there are references to what Arda will be like at the end of time. Tolkien makes a point of saying that it will not be a replica of the world before Morgoth since there is absolutely no way to duplicate that. Because the world has been marred, it will be different in its final outcome. But it will be no less beautiful or full of meaning. This seems to go along with that famous quote in the Silm where even Morgoth's evil acts will be used by Eru to fashion wonders that Morgoth can not even imagine.

I think it is the same way for a person. If and when you go through a wrenching experience, you can't pretend it never happened. You don't forget the suffering and you can't magically turn yourself into the old person you were before. But you can become something more, something different. If Frodo can somehow find healing in the West, he would have an understanding of things that would go far beyond what he had before living peacefully in the Shire.

Symestream - I agree with you that at some point on his journey, Frodo recognized that the outcome was unlikely to be good, yet he took on the task of his own volition, even with that understanding. That recognition came only gradually. It did not fall on his head in one swift lightning bolt. But, step by step on the path to Mordor, Frodo grew in understanding.

You are right to point out Gandalf's statement about Frodo becoming like a glass filled with light, a clear reference to the phial of Galadriel, that tiny sliver of a silmaril. And also Frodo had become more elf-like. Samwise mentioned that the light in Frodo's eye was growing as the Hobbit continued on the path. Another "positive" reference that could be added to this list was Frodo's dream in Bombadil's house. Surely this early premonition of the shores of Tol Eressea suggests that Frodo was "meant" to go West, and that meaning extends beyond any immediate need for healing.

Yet I agree with Davem that Frodo was suffering at the end....the illness that came on him on March 13, the anniversary of his poisoning by Shelob and also on October 6, the date of the wounding at Weathertop. In his Letters, Tolkien discussed the fact that Frodo felt disappointed that he had been a mere instrument of Providence rather than a conventional "hero", and that part of him still desired the Ring and felt guilt about all that. So, in my view, Frodo's trip to the West was required for two reasons: to find healing and to fulfill that part of his nature that Gandalf alluded to and which found expression in the dream at Bombadil's (as well as the other dream where he climbed the tower and looked out on the Sea).

Din ,

I think you are right. It comes down to faith in Eru, or at least a basic belief in the meaning of life. And yet, if you think about, how much did Frodo actually know?

One of the things that intrigues me is that the Hobbits as a whole really had very little idea of who Eru even was. They certainly had no formal worship.

Did Frodo know about Eru? He and Sam did make reference to a few of the Valar, mainly Elbereth. Probably something, because of Bilbo's interest in the Elvish tales.When Frodo saw Faramir's men rising to face the West after eating, he felt rustic and unlearned, wishing that his own people had such a custom. Knowledge of Eru (or even the Valar) was not widespread in the Shire and worship was unknown.

According to Shippey, one of the questions Tolkien wanted to investigate in LotR was how people chose the right path before formal religious revelations had been given to the world, i.e., in the so-called "pagan" world. One of the things that strikes me is how generally moral the Hobbits are, a morality based on instinct rather than formal belief. Their fidelity puts our own world to shame! As Frodo said, there was no instance of one Hobbit killing another since they had lived in the Shire. Would that we, with all our formal beliefs, could make such a claim!

[davem]

Child, Ok, I've put the most extreme case in regards to Frodo's sacrifice. Clearly he was drawn to things Elvish even before the Quest, & the desire for spiritual things grew the further down the road to Hell he went. There was a growing desire for things beyond the world he knew. The hole that was opened up in him by the loss of the Ring was maybe necessary - maybe he had to be deprived - by life or God - of those little things, so that he could grow sufficiently in spiritual terms to be able to enter that greater world. Frodo as 'Everyman' does reflect our own journey, & on that level the Shire is a pre-pubescent boy's fantasy world - the world of our own childhood which must be outgrown & lost forever (save in memory). Hence Frodo's experience is 'the way things are in the World' - whether we like it or not.

But Sam also grows, without the extreme suffering & loss. And Sam's love of the Elvish/spiritual world is no less than Frodo's. Perhaps the explanation lies in the fact that while Sam loves the Elvish world, Frodo needs it. Sam is perhaps like the regular church-goer who believes, but lives a life in the world, while Frodo is like the Monk or Nun (or if we accept the Sea Bell, the Hermit), who has to leave the world & everything & everyone they love for a life of the spirit.

Frodo's last days are a dark night of the Soul, & we can only speculate how long it will go on for, even after he leaves M.E. Sam seems to think or hope it will not go on for long. Perhaps Frodo ultimately does get what he wants, as well as what he needs, but we aren't told. I still think its a valid question to ask - is there a point where Frodo does truly realise what the cost will be, & agree too pay it, or is he just swept along the Road , by God or fate, or destiny - the way things are in the world. Does he agree to 'grow', is he made to 'grow'. Does God stand back & let us grow only when we want to, or does he ''hot-house'' us (sometimes, at least)? But, in an extreme case like Frodo's, shouldn't we have to agree to that?

[symestreem]

Going back to Din's original question, I found another quote:

But when all these things were done, and the Heir of Isildur had taken up the lordship of Men, and the dominion of the West had passed to him, then it was made plain that the power of the Three Rings was ended, and to the Firstborn the world grew old and grey.

Perhaps Frodo left not because of his pain, which was not seriously ruining his life, but because the world had grown 'old and grey' and 'dark and empty'.
I disagree that Frodo's experiences were necessarily negative ones. He grew, he changed; he became something higher. When you change, you are no longer what you were (duh!); in becoming higher and more elf-like, Frodo did lose some things- he became less like a hobbit, and so could no longer fit into their world. But, he gained some things too- he became higher and more elf-like, and was now going where he belonged. I don't want to oversimplify or reduce what Frodo went through, but I sort of compare it to growing pains.
Davem, Sam does grow; but he grows in a different way from Frodo. He is still in awe of the elves, not in sympathy (?) with them. He has become a stronger person and a nobler one- he has been "tempered", if you will- but he is not spoiled for life in the Shire. He did not have to bear the Ring, after all. He is inherently different from Frodo even at the beginning of the book; I think these inherent differences dictate in which direction each hobbit grows. OK, think of two trees. They are very short, and they lean slightly apart. If you take care of them, they will grow tall and wide, but they will still grow in the same direction they were before (barring uncommon events, which is another story...)
And, I just forgot the rest of what I was going to say.