* * Valaquenta Some proposals for a new project ... * *

[lindil]

A couple of points I think are up to date with the Valaq. :

If any of BolT were to be used it would be in a 2nd draft/version for the reasons Aiwendil listed below.

There are [as my marked up copy of the BolT 1 early chapters shows] alot of details which theoretically could be restored in our version, but we opted to go for a more conservative approach.

As I stated below [but it has been so long since I commented I better refresh myself before saying much ] I do not agree with the way the Yavanna or the authorship questions for Ainilindale and Valaquenta turned out, but the far more active members of the group were in agreement , so that was that.

If we go at a later date for a 2nd and more liberal version then we almost certainly will take additions such as yours into account.

As for the DOV, that was a pilot chapter [1/2 reaaaly] that I worked on waaaay back 2 groups before the current one [even Aiwendil was not around] and many of our defining principles were not fleshed out. So it really should be looked at as an example of what could be done more than anything belonging to the current groups work. I def. need to update the
Intro/FAQ thread to weed out quite a bit of older stuff in there that is not up to speed with the current methods and works in progress.

In short, some of my summarry comments in the FAQ/Intro [written, some of it, over 2 years ago I think] are not quite in jive with the current views.

Apologies for the unclarity.

As for the 2 versions, well it will be way more work, but I see no other way of covering the vast gaps of the many ways we could do this project.

Welcome to the Downs, and excellent firsat post.

Not to knock Findegil's encouragement down, but opening a new thread in this forum is usually done somewhat more hestiantly than in other fora.

And PM'ing Aiwendil or Myself, or if there is a designated project leader for a given chapter he/she would be the one who could say whether to start a new thread with your material or place it in the general questions or include it within an older thread.

But in general, it would be pretty difficult to do toomuch harm in that regard .

Again, welcome to the Downs and the TftE!

[Maédhros]

Secondly, it seems to me like a good thing (and in accordance with the principles and the goals) to incorporate older details when you can, so long as they do not conflict in any way with later conceptions. The goals of the project after all, state that "much will be worked into the narrative framework provided by CJRT... whenever possible," and that it will be a "compendium, primarily in narrative form, of all of the writings." It's true that we don't know whether JRRT left these details out intentionally, but we also don't know if he left them out accidentally or because he simply ran out of time.

I would really like that, but I think that this can really open up a Pandora's box in the project. If we were to make such additions from BoLT, for example in the Ainulindalë and Valaquenta who would be the author of such notes? For example:

"With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä. Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face. <CV Varda it was who at the playing of the Music had thought much of light that was white and silver, and of stars.> In light is her power and her joy."

The author of the BoLT Material in this case is Rúmil, yet as far as I remember, I don't recall Rúmil being the author of the Valaquenta. If we were to use such additions by him, does it falls in the same category as the Yavanna tree image that we faced in the Ainulindalë?
The only part that I might add, would be the ones about the Oarni/Earni. It is a very fine line that we are walking on.

This is just something that I wanted to point out from the Valaquenta in HoME X

In my foreword to The Silmarillion I wrote that in the Valaquenta 'we have to assume that while it contains much that must go back to the earliest days of the Eldar in Valinor, it was remodelled in later times; and thus explain its continual shifting of tense and viewpoint, so that the divine powers seem now present and active in the world, now remote, a vanished order known only to memory.'

Anyway, this was my first real post here. I hope it wasn't too impertinent, I'm just excited to get involved in some fashion. I also hope I used all that notation correctly...! Thanks for listening, and I look forward to participating more in this project.

Welcome to the project Raumohir, it is nice to see finally someone that posts that they want to join actually inmerse themselves in our work.

[Findegil]

I Have read our Valaquenta and The Coming of the Valar. And I know feel more or less fit to discuss the additions from Bolt 1 to our Valaquenta. First I will adress Aiwendils two questions:
1. Is the Valaquenta we are creating intended to be the Valaquenta - that is, does it purport to be the actual document within Arda called "Valaquenta"? Or is the text we are creating something else - a disembodied narrative with no fictional existence within Arda itself?
I am not sure if this does mater at all. What I mean is that no body can cross check with the "original" document. So what ever we do, we could soupose it to be within the ardarian document. But to be more serious, I think we can't create the ardarian document at all so I think we should not try to make that our goal.

2. Is there any Lost Tales material for this part of the story that we can (or should) use?
Here my answer is no. To explain this, I think we have look at the function of the Valaquenta in the course of the "The Silmarillion". The Ainulindale lays out the scene or the stage for the tale, and the Valaquenta does introduce the actors that will play a part in the first act. But The Coming of the Valar is the first act (in a differned play as I may say). We may like or dislike the way in which Tolkien does solve these functions, but does that allow us to alter them?

Now let's go to the examples Raumohir did post:

"With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä. Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face. <BoLT1 Varda it was who at the playing of the Music had thought much of light that was white and silver, and of stars.> In light is her power and her joy."

This could be added, but what does it add to our text? Isn't it much more than a repetiton "In light is her power and her joy."? In short it could be considered, but I don't think it is worth it.

<BoLT1 Behold, Manwë Súlimo and Varda the Beautiful arose> ... <Those twain gathered now wings of power to themselves and faired swiftly through the {three}[] airs> ... <Now swiftly as they fared {Melko}[Melkor] was there before them, having rushed headlong flaming through the airs in the impetuosity of his speed....>

This clearly can't be used. As I said above, the Valaquenta is no narative. And in addition what ever we make out of this it is not in accordance with the much later Ainulindale where the Ainur entered into Eä when nothing was made ready. Okay we could consider it as the entrance of the Valar in to Arda, but are we to use this very pictural version? The porject once considered even a round earth version, so were would we go with this.

<BoLT1 With them came many of those lesser {Vali}[Ainur] who loved them and had played nigh them and attuned their music to theirs, and these are the Mánir and the Súruli, the sylphs of the airs and of the winds.>

If we us this in the place that is more or less suggested by Raumohir's post it would mix up the account of the Valar and Maiar. That is exactly the opposit of what Tolkien did in his last editing of the text.

<BoLT1 Now behind those greatest chieftans came {Falman-}Ossë of the waves of the sea and <Cf. long-tressed> {Onen}[Uinen] his consort, and with them the troops of the {Oarni}[Earni],... spirits of the foam and the surf.>

To introduce the Earni here would realy be nice, but the the first part bear the same problem as the qoute before.

Overall I don't think that the Valaquenta is the rigth part to add these things. May be we should consider some parts for the Maiar part, put even that I find doubtfull.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Reading this thread again and the fiting chapters in HoMe X I found myself very hesitating about Vala-09. The problem of the shifting tenses in this chapter is not completly solved by these changes. And in view of Christopher Tolkiens remark

In all these cases, except 'he hated her, and feared her' on p. 26, the tense was changed from past to present. The change on p. 28 seems in any case mistaken (cf. p. 26, 'Manwe and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Iluvatar'); and to make any of them was probably a misjudgement. But the problem is real. A leading consideration in the preparation of the text was the achievement of coherence and consistency; and a fundamental problem was uncertainty as to the mode by which in my father's later thought the 'Lore of the Eldar' had been transmitted. But I now think that I attached too much importance to the aim of consistency, which may be present when not evident, and was too ready to deal with 'difficulties' simply by eliminating them.

I wouldn't make these changes at all. At least "The Fëanturi, masters of spirits, were brethren ..." should be allowed to stand.

Vala-10:
"Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of Vala-10{Námo}<Sil77 the Fëanturi>; ..."
I don't think we should follow Christopher Tolkiens lead here. The concept of siplings among the Ainur seems to me very complex. I am not sure that in Tolkiens mind Niënna was the sister of Lóriën even if she was the sister of Mandos and Mandos and Lóriën were brethern. In earlier stages of the legendarium I remember Mandos being call the brother of Manwë, but we never her of Melkor being the brother of Mandos, nor of Manwë being the brother of Lóriën. Thus I think it would be saver to stick to the original version with only Namo named as a brother of Niënna.

In genneral the presentation of the text is a bit difficult to follow. It is shifting back and for from Vq2 as the basis from which are changes indicate to Sil77.
I think it would be better to take Vq2 as basis and introduce only the desiered changes to that text. The changes introduced by Christopher Tolkien have been discussed, and if they are now lost from the text that does not matter.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Well, I only want to say that I included the descriptions of the dwelings of the Valar from the Lost tales. And some material from the Pengolodh words in the Ainulindalë of MR, that were taken by CT in the first chapter of QS77.

Greetings.

[Findegil]

In our Version I think that the discription of the dwellings will be introduce in the Frist chapter of the Quenta Silmarillion. The Words of Pengolodh to tha Ainulindale are in our Version given after the Ainulindale. In both cases we think that this placement is nearer to the ideas of JRR Tolkien.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

Gondowe proposed the follwing change in the thread about general changes:

include only in the Valaquenta an allusion of Mairon as the original name of Sauron per Words, Phrases and passages PE17, pg183:
for example:
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was [Mairon,] that spirit whom the Eldar [later] called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning...

The passage in Parma Eldalamberon 17: Words, Phrases and Passages in The Lord of the Rings on page 184 reads:

√SAWA-, disgusting, foul, vile: [Q saura, foul, vile whence name Sauron.]* prefix Q sau- as in: saucare, doing or making a thing very badly. Not used in Sindarin as prefix; but the adjective saur occurs in sense 'bad' of food etc., putrid, also substantive saw, flith, putrescence.

also Q söa, flith (sawā). [Added in the left margin.]

* This name is also used in late 3[rd] age Sindarin and could be a genuine Sindarin formation from saur; but is probably from Quenya. The ancient Sindarin name for Sauron was Gorthaur, of quite distinct origin: from √ÑGOR 'terror' and √THUS, evil mist, fog, Darkness: ñgor(o)-thūsō > Gorthu 'Mist of Fear'; cf. thû, horrible darkness, black mist < thūsē.
Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King Excellent' until after the downfall of Númenor. The Quenya form equivalent to Gorthu was ñorthus, ñorsus, stem ñorsūr-

I would add a bit more then Gondowe suggested:

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. Vala-07.5 <Words. Phrases and Passages Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King Excellent' until after the downfall of Númenor.> In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

Respectfuly
Findegil