Revelations and Realizations - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Guinevere · 04-05-2004, 01:23 PM

Quote:

...united the long sundered lines of the half-elven.

Looking at the genealogies, I noticed that in Elrond (and Elros) the lines of all the Elven houses (Noldor, Vanyar, Sindar) come together as well as the lines of all 3 houses of the Edain (Beor, Hador, Haleth) (plus the Maia strain from Melian) And in Arwen, there is in addition the line of the Teleri of Aman (through her mother Celebrian)
I'm sure this is no coincidence!
Because of Arwen's marriage to Aragorn the inheritance of all this nobility will live on in Men.
As Tolkien wrote in letter #144

Quote:

...the Elder Children, doomed to fade before the Followers (Men) , and to live ultimately only by the thin line of their blood that was mingled with that of Men, among whom it was the only real claim to "nobility".

doug*platypus · 04-09-2004, 05:14 AM

Nice work, Guinevere. I had not really noticed about the three houses of the Eldar being combined in Elrond and Elros, although I had noticed that important Noldor had married Sindar, Teleri and Vanyar. The divine race of Melian coming through to the line of Kings through Elros is indeed an important point in Tolkien's genealogy.

Does this imply that one strain of nobility (the descendants of Elessar) is more fit to rule over humanity than any other, by right of its divine inheritance? Is this an allusion to the possible descendants of Jesus Christ? Or am I buying too much into conspiracy theories that say Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute, but rather the wife of Christ? WHOA..... waaay off topic and probably not appropriate at all!

Care to explain how the House of Haleth got washed into the gene pool of Elrond and Elros?

Lobelia · 04-09-2004, 07:45 AM

[QUOTE=doug*platypus]
"Does this imply that one strain of nobility (the descendants of Elessar) is more fit to rule over humanity than any other, by right of its divine inheritance? Is this an allusion to the possible descendants of Jesus Christ? Or am I buying too much into conspiracy theories that say Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute, but rather the wife of Christ? WHOA..... waaay off topic and probably not appropriate at all!"

Ooh, you ARE cheeky!

That devout Catholic Tolkien must be spinning! I think it was probably enough for him that Aragorn was descended from kings - and the odd elf - without the goddess. He liked the notion of aristocracy and, with it, "noblesse oblige" - we see it right through LOTR. Can you name an aristocrat in the entire work who doesn't take his job as protector of the little people seriously? I can't. Aragorn has the right to rule through kingly descent, but he bloody well earns it!

Again, probably slightly off topic. What I mean is - Tolkien doesn't need any conspiracy theories or divine descent; nobility is plenty.

Guinevere · 04-09-2004, 09:30 AM

@Doug: I don't think that Tolkien in this letter used the word "nobility" in the sense of "aristocracy" , and giving the right to rule... I think he just meant nobility of the mind, and that some of the qualities of the Elves still live on in Men:

Quote:

The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aestethic, and purely scientific aspects of the Human nature

(from letter 181)

About the descent from the House of Haleth: Halmir - Hareth (the wife of Galdor) - Huor - Earendil - Elrond

Bêthberry · 04-09-2004, 04:09 PM

Alas, Anarion, yes, Goldberry is one of those characters who seems simply to disappear off the radar after Frodo has his first experience of adoration with her. It was a sort of mini-revelation, though, I guess, and in her house Frodo does dream of the sea. Well, I guess she also gets to name him "elf-friend".

Still, a Persephone who is not in thrall to the Underworld raises all kinds of possibilities...

Bethberry

PS. Yes, I know, very tardy reply. The orcs of real life have that tendency to keep us away from middle-earth.

Firefoot · 06-02-2004, 06:02 AM

Something I just realized while rereading RotK is that the Red Book of Westmarch has 80 chapters ("the 80th chapter was left unfinished...") and the number of combined chapters for LotR and the Hobbit is 80 - 18 in the Hobbit and 62 in LotR. It makes a lot of sense, actually, but I thought it was pretty cool the way JRRT tied it all in together.

NightKnight · 06-02-2004, 10:14 AM

About Arwen's heritage: Not only does she have blood from the three elven races (Noldor, Vanyar, Sindar/Teleri (both)) and maia, she also has from all three houses of men: Bëor's house through Beren, Hador's house through Tuor and Haleth's house through Tuor's grandmother, Hareth. I actually calculated exactly how much it was from each, and I posted it somewhere in the ME Mirth forum.

04-09-2004, 04:09 PM	#5
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Alas, Anarion, yes, Goldberry is one of those characters who seems simply to disappear off the radar after Frodo has his first experience of adoration with her. It was a sort of mini-revelation, though, I guess, and in her house Frodo does dream of the sea. Well, I guess she also gets to name him "elf-friend". Still, a Persephone who is not in thrall to the Underworld raises all kinds of possibilities... Bethberry PS. Yes, I know, very tardy reply. The orcs of real life have that tendency to keep us away from middle-earth. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

06-02-2004, 10:14 AM	#7
NightKnight Lost among the Stars Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden) Posts: 2,690	About Arwen's heritage: Not only does she have blood from the three elven races (Noldor, Vanyar, Sindar/Teleri (both)) and maia, she also has from all three houses of men: Bëor's house through Beren, Hador's house through Tuor and Haleth's house through Tuor's grandmother, Hareth. I actually calculated exactly how much it was from each, and I posted it somewhere in the ME Mirth forum. __________________ There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.

04-09-2004, 05:14 AM	#2
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Nice work, Guinevere. I had not really noticed about the three houses of the Eldar being combined in Elrond and Elros, although I had noticed that important Noldor had married Sindar, Teleri and Vanyar. The divine race of Melian coming through to the line of Kings through Elros is indeed an important point in Tolkien's genealogy. Does this imply that one strain of nobility (the descendants of Elessar) is more fit to rule over humanity than any other, by right of its divine inheritance? Is this an allusion to the possible descendants of Jesus Christ? Or am I buying too much into conspiracy theories that say Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute, but rather the wife of Christ? WHOA..... waaay off topic and probably not appropriate at all! Care to explain how the House of Haleth got washed into the gene pool of Elrond and Elros?

04-09-2004, 07:45 AM	#3
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	[QUOTE=doug*platypus] "Does this imply that one strain of nobility (the descendants of Elessar) is more fit to rule over humanity than any other, by right of its divine inheritance? Is this an allusion to the possible descendants of Jesus Christ? Or am I buying too much into conspiracy theories that say Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute, but rather the wife of Christ? WHOA..... waaay off topic and probably not appropriate at all!" Ooh, you ARE cheeky! That devout Catholic Tolkien must be spinning! I think it was probably enough for him that Aragorn was descended from kings - and the odd elf - without the goddess. He liked the notion of aristocracy and, with it, "noblesse oblige" - we see it right through LOTR. Can you name an aristocrat in the entire work who doesn't take his job as protector of the little people seriously? I can't. Aragorn has the right to rule through kingly descent, but he bloody well earns it! Again, probably slightly off topic. What I mean is - Tolkien doesn't need any conspiracy theories or divine descent; nobility is plenty.

06-02-2004, 06:02 AM	#6
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	Something I just realized while rereading RotK is that the Red Book of Westmarch has 80 chapters ("the 80th chapter was left unfinished...") and the number of combined chapters for LotR and the Hobbit is 80 - 18 in the Hobbit and 62 in LotR. It makes a lot of sense, actually, but I thought it was pretty cool the way JRRT tied it all in together.