Unnumbered Tears - what if?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I agree with your point about Nirnaeth being inevitable. But your point about the Valar being at fault...well...

...and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former them, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound [there being a battle of music between the Ainur and Melkor's theme before] more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery.

(The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë - emphasis mine)

The Ainur were also actualising their role in the conflict against Melkor - most of them sat it out, except, as examples, Melian and Ulmo. For a time, as the Eldar gained power and beauty in Arda, Morgoth's hatred will be poured out on them, and, for a while, they will be overpowered. The Valar not participating in that fight was pre-ordained by the Music, so any blame could be excused as them only doing what they could do, bound to the Music as they are.

[Firefoot]

Let's say it looked like they would win. Everyone proved faithful and the battle is looking good. I don't think Morgoth would at this point sit back and watch it happen. I could see two things happening:

A) He himself doesn't have anymore orcs/balrogs etc. left to fight, so he himself goes. I doubt if the Elves, Men, etc. could stand against the might of Morgoth himself. This I see as the less likely of the two.
B) The Elves, Men, etc. prove victorious. Morgoth admits defeat for that day, but waits and rebuilds his strength to an even mightier force than before and comes back out with his larger armies and utterly destroys the people. This one, I think is comparable to Sauron, matter of the Ring aside. He was defeated in the Last Alliance, but he waited and took form again, rebuilt his armies, and set out to destroy the world, and would have won had it not been for the Ring.

Either way, Morgoth's victory is inevitible, and the Elves' war on him impossible without the aid of the Valar.

If (B) were to be the one that occured, I think some of the Elves, like Fëanor's sons, would probably try to get the Silmarils back, but I think it would probably be hopeless. Morgoth is entirely too powerful for them to get them. They would have died in the attempt.

I agree the battle was inevitible and also necessary for them to have any hope of surviving. But it was hopeless. They never really had a chance against a foe so great.

[HerenIstarion]

Exclude clause A.

Morgoth (probably) would have been afraid to come out "for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear". And his duel with Fingolfin is stated to be the last skirmish Morgoth participated in in person. There have been some knocking on his doors and shouting of "come out" in times preceeding the battle discussed (Feanor upon landing almost there, and Fingolfin's march to the doors), but he did not bother himself to get out of his cosy armchair (or off hard and cruel throne) to make battle in person back than too: "Then the Elves smote upon the gates of Angband, and the challenge of their trumpets shook the towers of Thangorodrim; and Maedhros heard them amid his torment and cried aloud, but his voice was lost in the echoes of the stone"

[davem]

Nilpaurion,

I do wonder about the extent to which the Valar's inaction is due to them trying to 'actualise the Music' - which they are bound to do, IMO, & how much is down to shock, confusion & self doubt. They thought they were doing the right thing up to then, & suddenly it all collapses like a pack of cards.

At that point they suddenly cease to do anything effective against Melkor, as if they're afraid that any major action will blow up in their faces, so they wait until they feel they know what they should do - but lets face it, if it hadn't been for the Noldor in ME Morgoth would have had a free rein to do whatever he wanted. The Valar, in their confusion, & desire to see the Noldor humbled, desert Men, Dwarves & Sindarin Elves.

I agree with H-I as regards Morgoth - I recall an essay which describes him at the end 'cowering stupidly' in his lowest dungeon as the forces of the Valar (finally) assail Angband. But then, Morgoth isn;t some kind of Byronic 'anti-hero', going down in a blaze of glory. Tolkien wouldn't have created such a personification of evil, because he had seen real evil on the Somme, & knew that it's really cowardly, self obsessed & cruel. This is the difference between a writer like Pullman, who has lived a safe middle class existence & can play with the idea of evil being darkly attractive, & one like Tolkien who knew evil for what really was, & couldn't play around with it in that way.

[Firefoot]

I do wonder about the extent to which the Valar's inaction is due to them trying to 'actualise the Music' - which they are bound to do, IMO, & how much is down to shock, confusion & self doubt. They thought they were doing the right thing up to then, & suddenly it all collapses like a pack of cards.

Shock, confusion, doubt - isn't that exactly what caused them to stop making music in the first place? They were confused at what was going on because of Melkor's theme and they weren't sure what they were supposed to be doing anymore. They were making music the way they thought was right - and indeed it was! - and then Melkor started his own theme and the music of those Ainur "collapsed like a pack of cards", as Davem so well put it. I don't think they were actively "trying" to actualise the music - they don't have to be for the music to unfold. I agree with Nilpaurion - their non-participation was pre-ordained by the music.

[davem]

Quote:I don't think they were actively "trying" to actualise the music - they don't have to be for the music to unfold. I agree with Nilpaurion - their non-participation was pre-ordained by the music.

But then you could still say they were following the Music. My own feeling is that they lost a sense of what the Music was directing them to do, rather than stopping becuase the Music was stopping them. If they were 'stopped' by the Music from acting, then that would mean that the Noldor were meant to go to ME - though probably not in the way they did - & that they were meant to hold Morgoth at bay till the Valar could act effectively against Morgoth - which would mean that the Noldor's 'sin' is not in leaving Valinor - in fact they should have gone - which would mean the Valar were wrong to try & stop them.

[Maédhros]

I do wonder about the extent to which the Valar's inaction is due to them trying to 'actualise the Music' - which they are bound to do, IMO, & how much is down to shock, confusion & self doubt. They thought they were doing the right thing up to then, & suddenly it all collapses like a pack of cards.

I have to say that I totally disagree with this notion.
From Vinyar Tengwar: Ósanwe Kenta

If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwë and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwë appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return. He could read the mind of Manwë, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever.
How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwë and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwë was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.

At that point they suddenly cease to do anything effective against Melkor, as if they're afraid that any major action will blow up in their faces, so they wait until they feel they know what they should do - but lets face it, if it hadn't been for the Noldor in ME Morgoth would have had a free rein to do whatever he wanted. The Valar, in their confusion, & desire to see the Noldor humbled, desert Men, Dwarves & Sindarin Elves.

While it is true that the Valar seemed to desert Men, it appears that it was not so.
From Morgoth's Ring: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth. The Tale of Adanel

Some say the Disaster happened at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died. The Voice had spoken to us, and we had listened. The Voice said: 'Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you.'
We understood the Voice in our hearts, though we had no words yet. Then the desire for words awoke in us, and we began to make them. But we were few, and the world was wide and strange. Though we greatly desired to understand, learning was difficult, and the making of words was slow.
In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'
But we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will; and the shapes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds. Therefore we spoke less and less to the Voice.
Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. 'Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed,' he said. 'The world is full of marvellous riches which knowledge can unlock. Ye could have food more abundant and more delicious than the poor things that ye now eat. Ye could have dwellings of ease, in which ye could keep light and shut out the night. Ye could be clad even as I.' ...
The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying: 'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.'

It seems that the Valar could not come to the aid of Men as when the Elves came because Men were counselled by Eru himself. Now of course, when one reads the Published Silmarillion it is understandable to come up with the idea that after the Fall of the Ñoldor, the Valar left all of ME for the Ñoldor to battle Morgoth. It is indeed IMO, that the Sindar elves and the dwarves were unjustly punished in a matter between the Ñoldor and the Valar though.

One has to question the idea of what would have happened if the Valar had fought earlier with Morgoth? Look that most of Beleriand had been destroyed in the War of Wrath. Can you imagine how much more of ME would have been destroyed in an earlier battle? Morgoth as a being, would have had more inherent power in itself than he had at a later point. IMO, much more of Arda would have been destroyed.

Or course, the Valar themselves are not perfect an even they lacked estel.
From Morgoth's Ring: Converse of Manwë and Eru

but it was not until the death of Míriel in Aman that Manwë appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it.

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by davem

Tolkien wouldn't have created such a personification of evil, because he had seen real evil on the Somme, & knew that it's really cowardly, self obsessed & cruel.

By the Somme I assume you mean the Western Front in World War I. I question your portrayal of the war as 'evil'. Who exactly was evil? The Central Powers, for seeking domination? The Allied Powers, for opposing them and causing bloodshed? I also question the extent to which Tolkien saw real evil on the front lines. Soldiers do what they are told- this was before the Nuremberg trials. The evil to be found would have been in the high command, not the men-at-war. That doesn't mean that the war was right- I just think that evil has to be deliberate. For example, Morgoth was evil because he was trying to be evil, but Feanor was not evil.

[davem]

Originally Posted by symestreem

By the Somme I assume you mean the Western Front in World War I. I question your portrayal of the war as 'evil'. Who exactly was evil? The Central Powers, for seeking domination? The Allied Powers, for opposing them and causing bloodshed? I also question the extent to which Tolkien saw real evil on the front lines. Soldiers do what they are told- this was before the Nuremberg trials. The evil to be found would have been in the high command, not the men-at-war. That doesn't mean that the war was right- I just think that evil has to be deliberate. For example, Morgoth was evil because he was trying to be evil, but Feanor was not evil.

What is your concept of evil, if the Somme battlefield doesn't graphically portray the presence of it for you? Try this link & then tell me there was no deliberate evil to be seen on the Somme:

http://toosvanholstein.nl/greatwar/t.../tolkiene.html

Its not about individual persons doing 'evil' things - its much deeper & more horrible , a callous disregard, a lack of compassion, a deliberate infliction of suffering & degradation. All too often done for the 'highest' reasons, by people convinced they're in the right . Morgoth is a 'symbol' of something monstrous which is just way too close to most of us, & the 'spirit' of Morgoth was in the air of the Somme.

[Lalaith]

There is evil to be found in all wars, but not all wars are alike in cause and situation. I apologise for what I know is generalisation, but I think WWI was, overall, an evil situation which was the result of unbelievable blundering stupidity from those in charge on both sides. WWII was different in that the evil there was more deliberate, one-sided and premeditated.
It is interesting that Tolkien's work, born out of the first kind of evil, actually in general portrays the latter.

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by davem

Tolkien wouldn't have created such a personification of evil, because he had seen real evil on the Somme, & knew that it's really cowardly, self obsessed & cruel.

Originally Posted by davem

It was hell & hell is suffused with the presence of evil. there was something'evil' in all that waste, a good part of a whole generation thrown away, the soldiers themselves throwing their own lives away. Some thing more than insanity was going on there, & I don't know what else to call it but 'evil' - not evil individuals, but evil nonetheless.

In the first quote, you seem to be talking about evil with a face, or evil personified, as you said. In the second, you are talking about a nameless, faceless evil, that appears like the mist. I agree with you that there was wrongness and evil in World War I (and II, and all the others) but it was not the personified evil, like Morgoth and Sauron, found in Tolkien's books. Both forms of evil that you discussed appears in Tolkien's books. The second form may well have come from Tolkien's war experiences- I can't imagine anyone going through that and not being affected by it- but where does he get the idea for the Morgoth-and-Sauron type of evil? Isn't it just as stereotypical as Pullman's Lord Asriel, and the Bell-villain? Is there this kind of evil in the world?

[davem]

I suppose it depends whether you believe that 'evil' must have a motivation beyond human weakness & selfishness. I struggle with this idea most of the time, as its not exactly 'logical' to believe in the existence of some kind of 'Demon King'. Yet there are things that people do, individually & collectively, which seem in their effects, beyond the results of weakness & selfishness. I don't know whether its something 'internal' or 'external' to us, but its not part of our conscious selves. The desire to control, coerce, dominate, destroy, is in us, & can't always be traced to the effects of 'society' on us. You can look at all the economic & social reasons for the rise of Nazism, but none of that will explain the Holocaust.

Tolkien gives evil a mythological form in Middle Earth, & we get Morgoth & Sauron, but the 'effect' they have on Middle Earth is very much the kind of horrors we have witnessed in the past century - whether we can conclude from that that there is some kind of objectively existing 'evil' force behind events like the Somme & the Holocaust is one I can't answer - ask a theologian