Lament for the Elves

[Lord of Angmar]

I agree wholly with what you have said Bêthberry. Not only would Tolkien never stoop as low in his writing as to have one of his characters insult another by calling them feminine or 'girlish', he probably would not even understand why someone would do so. Calling a man 'womanly', or, as it has been so un-eloquently put, a 'nancy' (which is really a disgusting term when you learn its origins, which I'll admit I did not know before this thread began), connotes the idea that the man being insulted is somehow weak, feeble, cowardly, or just overtly feminine in the traditional sense of the word. Since in Tolkien's writing many of the most powerful characters are women (Galadriel, Eowyn, Luthien, etc.), and since none of his female characters display any of the stereotypical qualities of Victorian femininity, any such insults would be meaningless.

I do not mean any of the above to offend or upset the RPGers who used such terms; it can easily be forgiven since, admittedly, the movies (and traditional mythos behind 'elves') have turned the Lord of the Rings Elves into somewhat effeminate creatures in the eyes of many.

[mark12_30]

THis brings up the issue, then, that if we are going to perform a sweeping edit, we've got to find something else for them to bicker about. In TOlkien's world, what *were* the plausible insults?

"For some elves tease and laugh at them, and most of all at their beards."
"Don't dip your beard in the foam, father! It is long enough without watering it."
"Mind Bilbo doesn't eat all the cakes! He is too fat to fit through key-holes yet."

Old treasure wars?

The laws of hospitality?

Food for thought.

[Bêthberry]

Dear Helen and All,

Ummm, I don't think the point here is to make "sweeping edits" as Helen so names the activity. Will Witfoot offerred to make certain edits, but there has not been a large hue and cry for major reworking of any games. That was certainly not my suggestion. Nor do I think we need to set up a prescribed list of "canonical insults."

Perhaps this link which Aylwen Dreamson provided for the Rohan thread on RPG resources will be helpful in suggesting how to address the issue which Aylwen described by saying, "you can't rightly call another character a name from these days, can you? "

Elizabethan Insults


My point was merely to suggest that people think a little about aspects of language such as tone, modernity, connotations, style, etc. And in the process to point to some of the qualities of writing which distinguish the different RPG fora we have here.

Really, I think SaucepanMan said it best when he commented

But rather because they (or at least some of them) are modern phrases and terms of construction such that I would not imagine denizens of Middle-earth using. But I suppose it is no worse than film Gimli calling film Legolas a "pointy-eared Elf" or referring to an Orc's central nervous system.

[Lalaith]

Like Bethberry, I confess to faulty memory about insults in Tolkien. But, if it's any help to RPGers and others, there is an authentic tradition of insult-trading in Norse literature - which is after all where Tolkien got inspiration for dwarf names, runes and culture.
It's called 'flyting', and examples can be found in the Eddas and sagas.
And while I personally disapprove strongly of homophobic language, I would also add that the very severest of insults in the old literature do indeed refer to womanish behaviour in men. (In Njalssaga, for example, one Viking accuses another of being "the mistress of the Svinafell Troll, who uses you as a woman every ninth night.")
But bear in mind that this kind of insult was forbidden by law and usually sparked off the most hideous killings and blood feuds. So they were not flung around casually.
And while it is conceivable that dwarves might resort to such behaviour, I can't really see the elves either initiating or responding.

[Frodo Baggins]

I am quite glad this subjuect has been brought up. I have become quite sick of all the jokes portraying elves as sissys obsessed with hair care products. I have no problem with them being fair, I find that quite attarctive. And delicate does not necessarily mean fragile. Delicate could be refined and cultured. Defenitely Elves are wise and powerful, and also beautiful. But far from prissy.

Quick Edit here:

I also do not have a problem with long haired elves, male or female. I mean, corrct me if I be wrong but I always understood the fact that Elwe was called "Greycloak" because of the length and colour of his hair.

[Vanwatholiel]

Thank goodness somebody brought this up. I have been wondering, and seething at how people could say that Elves are self-centered and like to wash their hair. Elves are strong, mighty beings, granted not rugged, but fair, and delicate. Delicate does NOT mean fragile. They are full of wisdom. They are not human. I think that we are looking at them from a human point of view. To humans, they are prissy and sissy, but in Tolkiens world, they are the most wonderful beings in middle earth.

I believe that Elves deserve a lot more credit than they are getting. Gee, I am sooooo happy that somebody said something. The way the Elves, especially Legolas have been persecuted is wrong. Twisted and wrong. Sooo all things said, Legolas and the Elven species have been persecuted, but that ends now. Thank God. Thank you Imladris!