What's the Big Deal With the Undying Lands? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lord of Angmar · 04-20-2004, 06:38 AM

Etharius, your Numenorean curiosity would probably best be quenched with a reading of The Silmarillion. It's a mighty good read.

Quote:

Strange. This Valinor is reachable by sea and is an actual piece of land on the planet?

Not exactly. Though it is reachable (only to those permitted by the Valar) via the Great Sea, it is not actually a piece of land within the physical confines of the planet Ea. In that sense it does somewhat resemble a Judeo-Christian Heaven. A jolly good place to retire.

Guinevere · 04-20-2004, 02:10 PM

According to the Elf-centred mythology there was at first an actual Earthly Paradise, home and realm of the Valar, as a physical part of the earth.
(The Valar or "gods" are best described as angelic powers whose function was to exercise delegated authority in their spheres.)
The Valar persuaded a large part of the Elves to come and live with them in Valinor.(They were transported there on an island, Tol Eressea) Some of those Elves, however, went later back to Middle-earth.
Until the downfall of Numenor in the end of th 2nd age the world was envisaged as flat !
When the Numenoreans in their pride and folly broke the ban to sail West and tried to assault Valinor with a huge Armada (they thought they could thus gain immortality) the Valar appealed to Eru (God) and the old world was broken and changed. The earth became round, and the Immortal Lands (Valinor and Tol Eressea) were removed from the earth. But the immortal Elves who still lingered in Middle-earth in the 3rd age, could still take ship and find the "straight way" and come to the ancient West.
For the few mortals who by special grace went to Aman with the Elves, (Frodo, Bilbo, and later Gimli and eventually Sam) it didn't mean that they would become immortal though! They could only dwell there a limited time to receive peace and healing and would eventually die.

I hope this brief summary helps you to make things clearer, Etharius.
If you want to know more, you ought to read the Silmarillion, as the Lord of Angmar said.

Aethelwine · 04-20-2004, 02:30 PM

Ah yes, and to ad to what Guinevere said before me about finding the straight path:

I am sure you are familiar, in one way or the other, with the legend of King Arthur. Think about the magical world of Avalon, the land that is surrounded by mist. Only if you know where to find it, thus if you now the path, you can get there. I gather there’s something similar going on with Valinor, or Tol Eressea if you like.

This is speculation on my part, but it is not unlikely. For we know that Tolkien wanted to created a mythology for his country ( even the legend of King Arthur, though know as very English, is originally French ) and such a mythology as the Legend of King Arthur could very well have been a great source of inspiration for the Professor.

I hope this helps you a bit, Etharius.

Cheers mates!

Aethelwine.

**The Saucepan Man** · 04-20-2004, 06:47 PM

I believe that it may be more appropriate to equate Avalon with Numenor, Aethelwine. Tolkien himself expressly made the link between Numenor and Atlantis, and I think that the Atlantis myth is itself connected with the tale of Avalon.

Gorwingel · 04-20-2004, 11:40 PM

Saucepan, could you please explain more about what you talked about above? Because personally I am right now very confused about what you are saying

So do you mean that we should be instead of connecting the fall of Numenor with Atlantis, be connecting it with the legend of Avalon?

I have to say that I don't know very much about King Arthur (but I do know a little Monty Python). But from what I know of Avalon, it has always seemed more like a Valinor than a Numenor.

Valinor has always been for me like the Elven retirement home (but of course much nicer than a regular retirement home, more like the Four Seasons of retirement homes). When elves get tired of Middle Earth it is the place where they go for eternal peace and rest. They can do what they would like to do, and be in a place which has been unchanged (unlike Middle Earth which is changing all the time). But then it is also like heaven because all Elves desire to go there

Etharius · 04-21-2004, 05:33 AM

I think we are striding off topic now.

Thanks for the info, i no longer have so much foginess of Valinor in front of me. Perhaps one day i will read the Simarillion.

Cheers fellas.

Frodo Baggins · 04-21-2004, 06:08 AM

Actually Saucepan, Numenor is Atlantis, compare their legends, they are startlingly similar. Not to mention that Tolkien's original name for Numenor was Atlantia or something to that efect. I can't exactly remember.

04-20-2004, 02:10 PM	#2
Guinevere Banshee of Camelot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 5,830	According to the Elf-centred mythology there was at first an actual Earthly Paradise, home and realm of the Valar, as a physical part of the earth. (The Valar or "gods" are best described as angelic powers whose function was to exercise delegated authority in their spheres.) The Valar persuaded a large part of the Elves to come and live with them in Valinor.(They were transported there on an island, Tol Eressea) Some of those Elves, however, went later back to Middle-earth. Until the downfall of Numenor in the end of th 2nd age the world was envisaged as flat ! When the Numenoreans in their pride and folly broke the ban to sail West and tried to assault Valinor with a huge Armada (they thought they could thus gain immortality) the Valar appealed to Eru (God) and the old world was broken and changed. The earth became round, and the Immortal Lands (Valinor and Tol Eressea) were removed from the earth. But the immortal Elves who still lingered in Middle-earth in the 3rd age, could still take ship and find the "straight way" and come to the ancient West. For the few mortals who by special grace went to Aman with the Elves, (Frodo, Bilbo, and later Gimli and eventually Sam) it didn't mean that they would become immortal though! They could only dwell there a limited time to receive peace and healing and would eventually die. I hope this brief summary helps you to make things clearer, Etharius. If you want to know more, you ought to read the Silmarillion, as the Lord of Angmar said. __________________ Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat!

04-20-2004, 02:30 PM	#3
Aethelwine Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: In Anórien, just outside Edoras, on a horse I "borrowed"... Posts: 150	Guinevere? How very fitting... Ah yes, and to ad to what Guinevere said before me about finding the straight path: I am sure you are familiar, in one way or the other, with the legend of King Arthur. Think about the magical world of Avalon, the land that is surrounded by mist. Only if you know where to find it, thus if you now the path, you can get there. I gather there’s something similar going on with Valinor, or Tol Eressea if you like. This is speculation on my part, but it is not unlikely. For we know that Tolkien wanted to created a mythology for his country ( even the legend of King Arthur, though know as very English, is originally French ) and such a mythology as the Legend of King Arthur could very well have been a great source of inspiration for the Professor. I hope this helps you a bit, Etharius. Cheers mates! Aethelwine. __________________ Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind--not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being. - Catherine to Nelly, Wuthering Heights

04-20-2004, 06:47 PM	#4
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Avalon ... Atlantis ... Numenor I believe that it may be more appropriate to equate Avalon with Numenor, Aethelwine. Tolkien himself expressly made the link between Numenor and Atlantis, and I think that the Atlantis myth is itself connected with the tale of Avalon. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

04-20-2004, 11:40 PM	#5
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	Saucepan, could you please explain more about what you talked about above? Because personally I am right now very confused about what you are saying So do you mean that we should be instead of connecting the fall of Numenor with Atlantis, be connecting it with the legend of Avalon? I have to say that I don't know very much about King Arthur (but I do know a little Monty Python). But from what I know of Avalon, it has always seemed more like a Valinor than a Numenor. Valinor has always been for me like the Elven retirement home (but of course much nicer than a regular retirement home, more like the Four Seasons of retirement homes). When elves get tired of Middle Earth it is the place where they go for eternal peace and rest. They can do what they would like to do, and be in a place which has been unchanged (unlike Middle Earth which is changing all the time). But then it is also like heaven because all Elves desire to go there __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

04-21-2004, 05:33 AM	#6
Etharius Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: U.K. Posts: 34	I think we are striding off topic now. Thanks for the info, i no longer have so much foginess of Valinor in front of me. Perhaps one day i will read the Simarillion. Cheers fellas. __________________ < Wisdom, Strength, Honor >

04-21-2004, 06:08 AM	#7
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Atlantis Actually Saucepan, Numenor is Atlantis, compare their legends, they are startlingly similar. Not to mention that Tolkien's original name for Numenor was Atlantia or something to that efect. I can't exactly remember. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."