Most Tragic Figure - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

doug*platypus · 04-20-2004, 09:50 PM

You make a very good case, Angry Hill Troll. Most of us would shy away from placing Fëanor as a tragic figure. He was largely to blame for the suffering of many, many Eldar, and his good qualities are often overlooked. Mainly because there seem to have been so few of them!

Incidentally, if anyone is still interested, here is a link to the thread about the possible guilt of Finrod being associated with the Kinslaying:

Finrod and the Kinslaying

Quote:

According to the definitions given in each of those (very simply--a noble being brought low by situations/fate beyond his/her control), those people fit.

Frodo & Gollum need no discussion.

I'm not clear on how these two could be considered as tragic figures. Dilinziliel, when was Gollum ever noble? And how was Frodo brought low? He may have ended up in a worse position than he started in, but morally he was in fact superior by the end of the story. The Aristotleian definition provided by Mister Underhill would not consider Frodo as a tragic figure, I believe.

Gothmog · 04-21-2004, 11:03 AM

Ok, I know that this may sound very strange, but what about Melkor, Morgoth?
We don't know much about the time before Ainurs song, but we do know that Melkor was the greatest of Ainur. He was one of Iluvatars creations and he wasn't evil to start with, he just wanted to create something that wasn't exactly as Iluvatar had planned. He didn't do it to destroy something, he just felt that there was something missing.

From being one of the greatest Ainur to become Morgoth, that must be the biggest downfall ever, if thats the definition we're going to use of "tragic".

Apart from Melkor then... After reading only the headline, I thought of Turin. After reading the threads (well, not all of them) a want to name Feänor too, I agree with Angry Hill Troll

Do you think Melkor is terribly wrong???

Angry Hill Troll · 04-21-2004, 05:42 PM

Gothmog, the thought of Melkor had crossed my mind as well. Thanks for suggesting it!

While reading the Ainulindale I felt quite a bit of sympathy for Melkor. All he was doing was being so in awe of the whole creation concept that he wanted to take part in it himself. Nor can we really blame him for being the way he was, since after all that was how Ilúvatar made him...

I think what is missing in the case of Melkor is that most tragic heroes either die fairly quickly after their "fall", or at least come to a transcendental moment of clarity, realizing their own faults and taking responsibility for the consequences of their misguided actions. Melkor never does acknowledge his wrongdoings, except as a ruse to corrupt Valinor, and by the time he finally dies, we the readers have long since run out of sympathy for him. Simply stated, he wore out his welcome as a tragic hero.

Also, one of Aristotle's points is that a good tragedy produces fear in the part of the audience, because what happened to the tragic hero (being undone by a combination of circumstances and one's own faults) could conceivably happen to them as well--after all, who is without faults? But Melkor's fall is unique: no other being was in a position to be the ultimate source of all that is evil in the world. To some extent the same applies to Fëanor as well--no other child of Ilúvatar could fall so far simply because no other was as great to begin with. But Fëanor was the first, and most poignant example, of the power of Melkor's evil to corrupt the Children of Ilúvatar in general . For this reason his fall strikes fear in the Valar (since they now realize just how much damage Melkor is capable of doing) and in the other Eldar.

Thoughts, anyone?

04-21-2004, 11:03 AM	#2
Gothmog Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Where I lay my head is home Posts: 421	Ok, I know that this may sound very strange, but what about Melkor, Morgoth? We don't know much about the time before Ainurs song, but we do know that Melkor was the greatest of Ainur. He was one of Iluvatars creations and he wasn't evil to start with, he just wanted to create something that wasn't exactly as Iluvatar had planned. He didn't do it to destroy something, he just felt that there was something missing. From being one of the greatest Ainur to become Morgoth, that must be the biggest downfall ever, if thats the definition we're going to use of "tragic". Apart from Melkor then... After reading only the headline, I thought of Turin. After reading the threads (well, not all of them) a want to name Feänor too, I agree with Angry Hill Troll Do you think Melkor is terribly wrong??? __________________ Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...

04-21-2004, 05:42 PM	#3
Angry Hill Troll Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Ephel Duath Posts: 115	Gothmog, the thought of Melkor had crossed my mind as well. Thanks for suggesting it! While reading the Ainulindale I felt quite a bit of sympathy for Melkor. All he was doing was being so in awe of the whole creation concept that he wanted to take part in it himself. Nor can we really blame him for being the way he was, since after all that was how Ilúvatar made him... I think what is missing in the case of Melkor is that most tragic heroes either die fairly quickly after their "fall", or at least come to a transcendental moment of clarity, realizing their own faults and taking responsibility for the consequences of their misguided actions. Melkor never does acknowledge his wrongdoings, except as a ruse to corrupt Valinor, and by the time he finally dies, we the readers have long since run out of sympathy for him. Simply stated, he wore out his welcome as a tragic hero. Also, one of Aristotle's points is that a good tragedy produces fear in the part of the audience, because what happened to the tragic hero (being undone by a combination of circumstances and one's own faults) could conceivably happen to them as well--after all, who is without faults? But Melkor's fall is unique: no other being was in a position to be the ultimate source of all that is evil in the world. To some extent the same applies to Fëanor as well--no other child of Ilúvatar could fall so far simply because no other was as great to begin with. But Fëanor was the first, and most poignant example, of the power of Melkor's evil to corrupt the Children of Ilúvatar in general . For this reason his fall strikes fear in the Valar (since they now realize just how much damage Melkor is capable of doing) and in the other Eldar. Thoughts, anyone?