‘Canonicity’: the Book or the Reader?

[davem]

Helen , I'm not writing the Trotter story. I did play around with the idea for a while - it would be told by Trotter in the first person, to a visitor to the Prancing Pony. If anyone wants to write it I don't have a problem. I've only ever written one piece of fanfic - 'Orophin dreams of the Waters of Awakening' -which is on my computer, but I can't post it anywhere, as every time i try & copy it across from word I get a 'bad gateway 502' message! (I have a mac using OsX if anyone can advise).

Maedhros I agree with you about the Cottage of Lost Play. And I take on board what Saucepanman has said. But I think the idea of a 'revised Sil' is mistaken if its meant to be taken as anything more than an interesting way for you guys to pass the time. My reason: You 're trying to produce a work of art by committee - what's that joke about a camel being a horse designed by a committee? You're not trying to create your own secondary world, you're trying to second guess Tolkien. Its simply impossible to know what the Legendarium would have ended up like, or what decisions Tolkien would have made in coming to a final version.

As to the Tale of Turambar vs the Narn - this only becomes an issue if you start thinking in terms of a canon which must choose one over the other, not for reasons of personal taste (as in my case I reject the 'Dome of Varda' because I find it too outlandish - even in a world of 'Elves & Dragons') but out of a desire to make a 'final' version & 'embalm' it.

I simply cannot see why you would feel a need to produce such a thing. As soon as you choose between two versions of a story, & accept one & reject the other based on personal taste - 'we like this one better than that one, so we'll keep this one'. But taste can't be used as a criterion - or all those with a Christian, or at least monotheistic, religious bent would produce an 'Eruist' version, & claim that they were putting together the version Tolkien would have really wanted, & all those with a more materialistic worldview would excise the Eruist references.

(Quote from Dunsany's 'The King of Elfland's Daughter 'springs to mind- 'For it is ever the way of witches with any two things, to choose the more mysterious of the two' - in other words, we are all biased & our choices, whether individual or a result of a committee's discussion, will inevitably reflect our own idiosyncracies).

Bethberry sorry no time- I'll respond later.

[Maédhros]

Maedhros I agree with you about the Cottage of Lost Play. And I take on board what Saucepanman has said. But I think the idea of a 'revised Sil' is mistaken if its meant to be taken as anything more than an interesting way for you guys to pass the time. My reason: You 're trying to produce a work of art by committee - what's that joke about a camel being a horse designed by a committee? You're not trying to create your own secondary world, you're trying to second guess Tolkien. Its simply impossible to know what the Legendarium would have ended up like, or what decisions Tolkien would have made in coming to a final version.

It is just what CT did in writting his "Silmarillion". Aye it is indeed impossible to know what would have JRRT have done in the end but I assure you that I have learned more of the legendarium and the evolution of it by just being in the project.

As to the Tale of Turambar vs the Narn - this only becomes an issue if you start thinking in terms of a canon which must choose one over the other, not for reasons of personal taste (as in my case I reject the 'Dome of Varda' because I find it too outlandish - even in a world of 'Elves & Dragons') but out of a desire to make a 'final' version & 'embalm' it.

I see it in terms of the evolution of the legendarium. The Narn to me is the product of a more mature Tolkien in reference to the Tale of Turambar. If JRRT was satisfied with the Tale, then why did he write the Narn? Even though I think that the Narn is superior to the Tale, my reason for thinking that it is more "canonical" has to do more with my common sense and logic.

simply cannot see why you would feel a need to produce such a thing. As soon as you choose between two versions of a story, & accept one & reject the other based on personal taste - 'we like this one better than that one, so we'll keep this one'. But taste can't be used as a criterion - or all those with a Christian, or at least monotheistic, religious bent would produce an 'Eruist' version, & claim that they were putting together the version Tolkien would have really wanted, & all those with a more materialistic worldview would excise the Eruist references.

I don't think that this is accurate. We have tried to minimize in our work or personal preferences. There have been times that our ideas has been rejected by the other memembers, and it is nearly impossible sometimes to come to an agreement. That is why we try to apply our principles in making a more complete "Silmarillion".
If there were not people who would feel a need to produce such a thing, then CT probably wouldn't have compiled his "Silmarillion", I wouldn't be here because I was truly enchanted by the work that CT did in his father's manuscripts. I think that there is a point that people are just content to read the stories and see how the evolved, but there are some of us out there which find that not nearly enough. I want to read a more "complete Silmarillion". In a way it would be a "Revision" of CT's previous work. Does it has it's limitations of course it does, do we think it will be finished? Not really but it is a work of love. I wish that some of you might read our finished chapter to know what you think about it.

[mark12_30]

*Gladly*, Maedhros, where do I find it?