Dwarves - what is Tolkien's attitude? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Olorin_TLA · 05-07-2004, 06:38 AM

Yes, originally they were just dispicable. Then he decided that it wouldn'tbe all Dwarves, just the ones who sacked Doriath who were bad guys. By the time of LotR they had matured (by which I mean not in historical, but fleshed-out-character terms) to be a race with a wide variety of individuals, noble, proud, greedy, and corpulent in them. But certaqinly the good Dwarves, such as Durin'sline whihc produced Gimlik Balin, etc, must have been liked by Tolkien. As for the not so nice ones (and note that even they're not "just bad": they served Sauron in the Second Age, some did, and yet didn't Dwarves from all Houses help Durins' get revenge for the murder of Thror?) , well, Tolkien didn't like not so nice Men or Elves either.

tar-ancalime · 05-07-2004, 08:11 AM

I agree that the Dwarves don't come off well in the Silmarillion. But I think that's to be expected--the story is really mostly about Elves (and a few Men, but mostly Elves). How could the Dwarves look any way but unsavory in a story about their ancient rivals?

It would be fascinating if we could see how the Elves come off in a Dwarf-centered account of the events of the First Age.

Kuruharan · 05-07-2004, 08:30 AM

The Elves would be justly protrayed as the blood-thirsty maniacs they were.

Legolas · 05-07-2004, 10:57 AM

Not to mentions Elves wrote the account...

Kuruharan · 05-07-2004, 11:52 AM

Propaganda!!! T'was all shameless propaganda, I say!!!!

tar-ancalime · 05-07-2004, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The Elves would be justly protrayed as the blood-thirsty maniacs they were.

Spoken like a true Dwarf.

Well, any history will tell you more about the historian than about what actually happened...

Laitoste · 05-07-2004, 08:35 PM

My own opinion is that dwarves don't come off looking especially bad in The Silmarillion. Yeah, Mim & the dwarves of Nogrod were pretty bad, but for the most part, they are an impressive race. They delved Nargothrond and Menegrost (for elves), fought with the elves, and just basically minded their own business. And with the fall of Doriath, quite a bit of that is due to Thingol's stupidity too, and it comes across quite clearly in the book. And dwarves weren't the rivals of elves until the fall of Doriath, and only the dwarves of Nogrod were involved. The elves look worse than the dwarves, really. Probably because there are more of them, and they had a tendency to make stupid decisions. Especially the sons of Feanor.

05-07-2004, 06:38 AM	#1
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Yes, originally they were just dispicable. Then he decided that it wouldn'tbe all Dwarves, just the ones who sacked Doriath who were bad guys. By the time of LotR they had matured (by which I mean not in historical, but fleshed-out-character terms) to be a race with a wide variety of individuals, noble, proud, greedy, and corpulent in them. But certaqinly the good Dwarves, such as Durin'sline whihc produced Gimlik Balin, etc, must have been liked by Tolkien. As for the not so nice ones (and note that even they're not "just bad": they served Sauron in the Second Age, some did, and yet didn't Dwarves from all Houses help Durins' get revenge for the murder of Thror?) , well, Tolkien didn't like not so nice Men or Elves either. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

05-07-2004, 08:30 AM	#3
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	The Elves would be justly protrayed as the blood-thirsty maniacs they were. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

05-07-2004, 10:57 AM	#4
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Not to mentions Elves wrote the account... __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

05-07-2004, 11:52 AM	#5
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	Propaganda!!! Propaganda!!! T'was all shameless propaganda, I say!!!! __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

05-07-2004, 08:35 PM	#7
Laitoste Wight Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Behind the hills Posts: 164	My own opinion is that dwarves don't come off looking especially bad in The Silmarillion. Yeah, Mim & the dwarves of Nogrod were pretty bad, but for the most part, they are an impressive race. They delved Nargothrond and Menegrost (for elves), fought with the elves, and just basically minded their own business. And with the fall of Doriath, quite a bit of that is due to Thingol's stupidity too, and it comes across quite clearly in the book. And dwarves weren't the rivals of elves until the fall of Doriath, and only the dwarves of Nogrod were involved. The elves look worse than the dwarves, really. Probably because there are more of them, and they had a tendency to make stupid decisions. Especially the sons of Feanor. __________________ "If we're still alive in the morning, we'll know that we're not dead."~South Park

05-07-2004, 08:11 AM	#2
tar-ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: abaft the beam Posts: 303	I agree that the Dwarves don't come off well in the Silmarillion. But I think that's to be expected--the story is really mostly about Elves (and a few Men, but mostly Elves). How could the Dwarves look any way but unsavory in a story about their ancient rivals? It would be fascinating if we could see how the Elves come off in a Dwarf-centered account of the events of the First Age.