Was Eru a Sadist?

[davem]

Well, those accounts weren't written, or even dictated by Eru Himself, so we're only getting opinions here

I still don't think we can get a clear enough sense of Eru's personality - & I'd still ask whether he has a 'personality' in the psychological sense, or an Ego or a superego, or an id - does He have a 'Self' in the Jungian sense?

In other words, can we use psychological terminology to 'psychoanalyse' Him? Can we diagnose Him as suffering from a human personality disorder? Even if we could interpret some acts in psychological terms, it being impossible to (taking the position of a creature within Middle Earth) concieve of the mind of Eru. And if we're analysing Eru as a character, we're really analysing Tolkien's concept of God, & psychoanalysing him - why would he come up with a God that behaved in a sadistic way (if we think He does).

[Olorin_TLA]

This all boils down to: "assuming there's a Supreme Being in this existence, are THEY a sadist?" because that's what Eru is.

So devout religiopus people would be likely to say no. , myself, would say yes. The reason why Tolkien would say no, and others, is that "God works in mysterious ways" etc, etc. Basically, if a mortal were to act like Eru, we'd hope Saruon ate them. But who can fathom Go, Tolkein might well say. And you'd be free to disagree.

[Lhunardawen]

Well, those accounts weren't written, or even dictated by Eru Himself, so we're only getting opinions here

The mere fact that Eru himself has said those words in the Ainulindalë leads us to what kind of being (more like deity, actually) he really is. I would not say he is being psychoanalyzed by interpreting his words, because don't we (rather subconciously) get to know more about a person when we hear him speak? Esty has actually given quotes that are quite straight to the point, thus there is no need for deep analysis.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

"Our Father in Heaven, Hallowed be thy na..."

ZAP!

"I AM YOUR MOTHER, YOU BLIND MORON!"

Yep, Eru/God/Budda/Allah is sadistic alright. He/She/It allows freedom of speech so that we mortals can murder each other at slight disagreements, all for His/Her/Its entertainment.

But let's get back to the question: Was Middle-Earth just a chess-board for Eru? You know, that allegory is actually leave room for another question: why isn't there any instances where Eru stepped in to pull out the source of his annoyance? We read the rebellion the Evil ones. We also read of the disobedience of the Children. But never we read of Eru lifting a finger against them, except in the case of Numenor. But in the case of Numenor, Manwe actually beaconed Eru to take control of the situation.

So are we not left with the image that the Valar are the actual players in the game of chess in Middle-Earth? Eru seemed to take more of a referee's place.

[HerenIstarion]

why isn't there any instances where Eru stepped in to pull out the source of his annoyance

If I were a parent, my will would be that my children behaved properly and tied up their room, but my will would also be that they were free. If I were to find the room in a mess, I would certainly have my will contradicted in one way, but carried along in another, since my children were free to mess it up. Furthermore it is question of my priorities, what is it I like best - tidy room or free children. (I would certainly prefer both at once, but if they refuse to clean up?...)

That's for it, and I would heartily remind participants it is not the place to vent one's spleen for the injustice (have you thought, by the way, whence such a concept as 'injustice' emerges?) of the universe, but the discussion board

thank you

[Lalaith]

As Olorin has already pointed out, the question of Eru's 'sadism' can be asked of any concept of an omniscient and morally perfect Creator who allows evil and sorrow to exist in his creation.
It is a problem and paradox that has tormented philosophers and theologians since time immemorial. Many pagan religions resolved the problem by conceiving of gods who were not all-powerful and had moral flaws. Aristotle meanwhile conceived of a 'first mover' that was perfect, pure thought, thinking only of itself, thus unconcerned with our doings.
Eru does seem to be conceived more in the line of the Christian and Muslim deities, who are held to have more active and moral involvement in their creation. However it is interesting that no-one in Middle Earth actually appears to worship Eru, ask him to intercede on their behalf or even to mention him. So perhaps Eru is more of an Aristotlean 'prime mover' than he first appears to be.

[davem]

I suppose it depends how 'worship' is defined - certainly there's nothing along the lines of Christian style worship - but there is worship of a kind in both Aman & Numenor. I don't think Eru can be thought of as a 'first mover', as He is clearly involved in the world - if mostly indirectly through the Valar, though He does intervene directly at certain points - as in the destruction of Numenor, &, less blatently, possibly in bringing about the destruction of the Ring.

One thing occurs as I write, & I don't know if it belongs here, or is worth starting a new thread for - in one of the notes to Osanwe Kenta its stated that all foresight comes from Eru - knowledge of the future can only be passed to beings within the world by Eru directly, as only to Him is full knowlege of the future accesible, so Eru must be the source of Frodo & Sam's visions in Galadriel's Mirror. But Galadriel says the Mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds, because not everything it shows comes to pass. Yet, everything they see in the Mirror does come true, & this time at least, it is showing the truth.

Does this mean that Galadriel's Mirror is functioning differently when Frodo & Sam look into it - but if it is, would that mean their future is fixed from that point & Eru is showing them exactly what WILL happen?

But if the Mirror is only showing 'possible' futures, how come every one of the things they see comes about? If they are seeing the real, actual future, then its source can only be Eru.

So Eru is intervening directly to show them the future by means of Galadriel's mirror?

The implications of this seem quite significant - unless I'm completely wrong in my interpretation.

[Bêthberry]

I think you might be on to something, Lalaith in asking which 'model' of deity is suggested here.

We have Tolkien's statement that he tried "consciously so in the revision" to suggest a Christian ethos and symbolism for his Legendarium. However, in also harkening back to the old Norse mythologies, he would find a different concept of deity--or certainly different deities who behaved with wilful abandon, excess, selfishness and selfcentredness, in short, with all the shortsightedness and lack of self control which humans possess. Are the tendencies of deities in the old heroic epics to be found in the Legendarium?

One other point, although Estelyn's dictionary definition suggests elements in sadism, it is incomplete in that it omits the dynamic nature of the tendency. Usually there is a willing partner, the masochist, who allows or submits to the game willingly. Sadism is not, simply, imposed cruelty but a dynamic relationship.

But another way to look at the question:

Does Eru play upon the emotional weaknesses of the people of Middle-earth? Are they free to control their proclivities so that they cannot be blindsided by him? Or surprised by the consequences of their own failings? Usually, in mythologies, it is the the secondary agent who is used to test and challenge the characters, not the main deity.

In Chrisitanity, that secondary agent is Satan, who has been understood in many different ways over the last four thousand centuries. He was not always the "grand and malevolent" figure, the great antagonist which Milton characterised in Paradise Lost but merely someone, an angel, sent to block or obstruct human activity in such a way as to teach people something about their own weaknesses and foibles. (I am here relying upon Elaine Pagels' book The Origin of Satan.

To borrow Tolkien's metaphor from "On Fairy Stories", there is much simmering in the great Cauldron of Story.