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Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
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#1 | |
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Haunted Halfling
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules
Posts: 841
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We can, therefore, accept Faramir's words at their value (which is nebulous and provocative of thought even inside Middle Earth), and we can take these words into the primary world and interpret them there as well. "Faramir believes in God; Faramir believes there is some realm beyond; Faramir values that realm and it informs him in his daily life; Faramir is a crackpot who performs a silly ritual; Faramir's rituals help him deal with the reality of constant war by taking his mind off it...etc. etc..." Insert Joe Smith next door for Faramir (not that I think there are any Faramirs where I live!) But one can accept Faramir as a noble character or crackpot, or what have you and see Faramir reflected in the primary world, just as one can see other concepts or characters reflected. The reader's perception of the concept or character does not necessitate that he or she accept Tolkien's definitions in secondary writings as you said, SpM, nor that the reader accept the expressed motivations behind the works as his or her own motivations. Cheers, Lyta
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“…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.” |
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#2 | |
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Deadnight Chanter
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merely offshot
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#3 |
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Not really an attempt to resurrect this thread, but I've just come across this article, which seems to sum up a lot of what has been said here:
http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/is.../16-8pg42.html (of course, if this sparks off the debate again, that would be cool). |
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#4 | |
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Deadnight Chanter
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having a little (and deserved) rest, they are...
I have strong suspicion people are just having a time-out, getting their breaths back for another nine page dive
![]() Thanks for the link, read first, comment later *heads off in the direction of Touchstone... edit: Thank you again, there was a good read on it. Should we stress on: Quote:
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 05-25-2004 at 07:27 AM. |
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#5 | |
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Quote:
Tolkien seems to be offering the exact opposite. So, can we class both writer's works as 'fantasy' - HDM is not 'fantasy' in the sense in which Tolkien uses the term, because Eucatastrophe is completely absent. Indeed, Pullman seems to have created a story in which eucatastrophe is impossible. He seems almost to see enchantment & eucatastrophe as part of the 'childish' innocence which has to be outgrown & left behind. Yet the world he offers to the 'wise' adult is simply bleak & ultimately hopeless. Pullman seems incapable of accepting the possibility of enchantment even in a story. His 'fantasy' worlds have to be as bleak as the 'real' world, as far as he is concerned. Tolkien's secondary world, as well as his vision of this world, are equally 'enchanted'. So, a fanfic set in Middle Earth, if it is to be 'canonical' must contain & express that hope, & eucatastrophic possibility, while a 'Pullmanic' fanfic must be free of all enchantment, & even of the possibility of it. To bring this back to the subject of this thread, I think we have to say that 'enchantment' & 'eucatastrophe' are central to Tolkien's canon, & have to be seen as present in everything he wrote, rather than as things which can be ignored, or seen as peripheral. Its really in a comparison with Pullman's work that we can see this clearly. The total absence of enchantment & eucatastrophe in Pullman's world(s) shows their presence in sharp relief in Tolkien's world. It also shows them as being at the emotional core of Tolkien's creative work. I think it also explains why HDM left me cold. Tolkien is attempting to get us to see the world in a certain way, from a certain perspective - a'Christian' one, as Caldecott will have it, & that seems to go to the core of his purpose - as if that was the 'canonical tradition' that he was working within, & attempting to conform his writings to. Pullman is working within a different canonical tradition - equally biased - though no doubt he would claim more objectively 'true'. Both writer's visionsare quite 'dark', but what seems to anger Pullman as regards Tolkien's vision, is that Tolkien holds out the possibility of Light breaking through. I don't know if I've strayed away from the subject of this thread here, but I think maybe its easier to explore the relationship of reader to book if we compare different writers work. |
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#6 | |
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Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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This is an interesting approach here,davem, to develop the discussion by comparison with other fantasy writers. However, I think the comparison with Pullman, as represented by the Touchstone article, is perhaps not the only way for a Christian to interpret the Dark Materials trilogy.
I am copying something which Rimbaud sent to some of us, a review of the stage production in London, England of Pullman's trilogy. I think Rimbaud got this from the Guardian but I am not sure. It is written by the current Archbishop of Cantebury, the spiritual head of the Anglican Church and strikes me as being far more astute or perceptive about literature and faith than the Touchstone article, but this is simply my opinion. Quote:
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 05-25-2004 at 10:07 AM. |
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#7 |
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Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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While a high school student from Arkansas is a long way from the Archbishop of Canterbury, this brief article also suggests what Bethberry was saying: that a person may account themselves a Christian yet view Pullman in a different light than that put forward in Touchstone. This young Christian woman feels that a reading of HDM "allowed her to grow as a person and closer to God." This student feels that reading Pullman has made her better able to understand the complexities of life, and less likely to automatically condemn someone whose faith is diferent than her own. On this, click here.
My personal views on HDM are a bit more complicated than that. I find some parts of the series challenging, even questionable, and others spell-binding and positive. I will never feel the easy affinity I do when reading Tolkien. Yet I hesitate to say Pullman's work presents a totally "bleak" world that lacks any enchantment. This is not at all the feeling I had when I closed the pages on the final volume. I will try to organize my thoughts later as I am running out the door, but for now will offer several links for anyone who's interested. For the upcoming movie and the enormous difficulties in transferring Pullman's themes to film given the very real religious sensibilities that exist, see this. For a general fansite, and an article discussing the relation of Pullman's works to myth in general and the Creation story in particular, check here.
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 05-25-2004 at 06:16 PM. |
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