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#1 |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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Hmm…my cogitations seem over simplifying? Oops, not quite what I was after – and here I was congratulating myself on rendering such a confusing idea into an actual post that made some sort of sense.
Firefoot and Essex, I see what you mean about the reductionism of “making” LotR into either a circle or a line, but my point is actually that it seems to be both at the same time. Like Estelyn, I very much like the idea of the spring. The other image that came to mind as I was writing the original post was that of W.B.Yeats’ gyres, particularly in that the spiralling action of LotR does seem to move ‘outward’ into ever expanding circles. In the little plot summa I gave above, there is an expansion in each repetition of the pattern. This expansion is, first, temporal – that is, the cycles take place over the course of days, then of weeks, then of months, and finally years – with Frodo’s trip to the Undying lands, these cycles reach even into the Eternal. But the expansion is also, I think, thematic somehow: as Frodo’s ‘awareness’ or conscience or morality or whatever grows throughout his journey, so too does his journey. All of this seems to me to reinforce the idea that LotR is perhaps more complicated than even the spring (or the brilliant brick-laying analogy!) do it credit. The Road and the Ring are not attempts on my part to explain the whole work, but structural/organisational motifs/devices that Tolkien has used to organise his story. Every story has ‘shape’ – the western story of “our” own culture/civilisation is very much linear (history moves ‘forward’, cultures ‘advance’, generations ‘succeed’ one another), and this is very different from more traditional stories of historical movement (Native Americans, for instance, very much imagine history as circular, with each generation re-placing the former). So, given the fact that Roads and Rings, linearity and circularity, are so insistently (and consistently) mixed in Middle-Earth, the stories of the characters become very complex. Boromir88 has said that “the Aragorn at the end is very different from the Aragorn at the beginning” – he is therefore ‘circular’ in a sense. Well, I’m not sure I can go along with that simplification. Aragorn does follow a circular Road from houseless wanderer to King – thus completing the historically circular pattern of his people. But his own personal journey is, I think, very much in a straight line. The conditions of his life may change, but I don’t see much by way of personal development or alteration/realisation. When he meets the hobbits in Bree, for example, he announces from the outset “I am Aragorn son of Arathorn. If by my life or death I can serve you, I will!” – this is, I would suggest, very much the kind of man he is for the duration of his life. Frodo, on the other hand, undergoes a profound and complete alteration (under the influence of the Ring) and thus his journey is entirely circular (he ends up where he began: Frodo leaves Aragorn in Minas Tirith – at the end of their shared Road – and goes back to his round hobbit hole) but this is repetition with a difference (he is not the same person). In the end, Frodo leaves Middle-Earth and takes the “straight Road” into the west. So the journeys of both Frodo and Aragorn are circular and linear; but each of them follows their own Roads for the sake of their own Rings. So (deep breath) what does this all mean?? Are Roads and Rings somehow compatible in LotR (I’m not happy with that one, frankly, since the Fellowship has to follow their Road to destroy the Ring)? This is well beyond simple questions of good and evil – what do Roads represent as compared to Rings (and vice versa), and how can these help our understanding of the characters’ individual journeys, as well as the history of the War of the Ring? |
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#2 |
Ubiquitous Urulóki
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Ah, at last I find the courage to post in one of Fordim's fantastic threads. Before, I'd considered myself not scholarly enough, but I think I have something to say on this, so here I go. Wish me luck, fellow meek ones...
Alright, a congruence of road and ring. Both fascinating and deceptive in its course. There was the cited fact that a road, or straight objective has a heading, going somewhere, whereas the circular, ring path leads nowhere but into themselves. Now, on a metaphor, one can't say that the Ring Quest leads into itself (excepting another theory 2 paragrahs below this). There is also the slightly bizarre deduction of mine found through Road and Ring assumptions. In many of the cordoned off sections of the books, there is a recurring line or circle theme, in more than the land lay. Focal points: Minas Tirith, Shire, Isengard, Orodruin, has those themes within, but the similarity is shared by surroundings. Consider the tree to be a representation of road, bearing many straight branches, a road-like trunk, and often pockmarking roadsides. Then, consider the influence of the ring in, say, a pool, usually implied as circular in shape. Focal points are also effected by such things, ala Old Willow, Treebeard, the Lothlorien Mallorns, the White Tree of Gondor to battle the side of the road and Galadriel's Mirror, the Pool at Henneth Annun, the 'Pool' in Mount Doom, the pool in the courtyard of Ecthelion's Tower at Minas Tirith for the rings. Sensible, though a little crackpot in its stating. Then again, think about the whole road mentality. Roads inevitable go, but do not always remain level. At a certain point, there is a steady beginning of the ascension/descension theme, which is found in both road and ring (ascent to Minas Tirith is a circular path, descent into Moria is a straight one) but always there are ups and downs. As such, one might assume from my above theory that the theme is more natural than related to Fordim's theory, but I stand by my belief that the two are intertwined. There is a steady course of ring ascent, road descent (there's a thought. Notice that most of the ascension is ring-wise, the descension road-wise). You could say it all comes down to advanced geometry. Is it necessary to delve into the third dimension of Arda here...or even the fourth? Speaking of, I may have botched my ME history lessons, but wasn't Arda a plane before the first age? As in, flat like pre-Galilean Earth? Dimensions could be crucial. There is, then, the matter of character and the journey. Journeys lead 'somewhere' but the journey of the 4 hobbits takes them eventually back where they were once, the Shire. Unlike other journeys in literature, the story doesn't end with victory, and then some epilogue delving into the future. The journey ends 'when the road is travelled,' and 'when the ring is complete.' The character paths are often ring-ular (i.e. Frodo, Aragorn, etc) but there is a difference. Only one of the Fellowship actually travels in a ring, who is, most interestingly, Samwise Gamgee, who ends up closest in personage to where he began the books, still in love with his gardening and a hobbit of the simple life. All other Fellows of the Fellowship have gone on roads and rings, returning PHYSICALLY to where they began, but not MENTALLY. Frodo has the scar of the Ring (read: circle) on him, Aragorn is of kingly stature, with new duties, Merry and Pippin are revered as heroes with new following in Rohan and Gondor, Gimli and Legolas have found a friendship for each other utterly unexpected before hand. For all those uber-Sam lovers out there, revel in this moment, as Sam has a peculiar uniqueness compared to the other road travellers. Of Gandalf I cannot say. but wizards work in mysterious ways, so I shan't be the one to try and fathom them.
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"What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies |
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#3 |
Laconic Loreman
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A little bit of Geometry
I'll bring up some Geometry, ok so you have a circle, ring 360 degrees. Which means a 360 is that you end up back where you started. This is similar to most characters, Sam, Merry, Pippin all returned back to the Shire. Aragorn, if I can still remember correctly, fought alongside Denethor in their early ages then he returns to be the King. Legolas and Gimli I will have to look at more closely to be able to make a decision. Some of the supporting Characters, for instance, Theoden, Eomer, Imrahil, all went out and off their "road" to aid Gondor then they returned back. For Theoden he went back dead, but went back none the less.
I left out Frodo since someone mentioned his Journey was more of a lasso, which makes sense. I would like to talk about Frodo's "spiritual" change. It's like he did a 180, he's not the same anymore. If you read "The Scouring" it just seems like Frodo, doesn't love the shire that he once did. Frodo, sought healing and was a ring-bearer, but it just didn't seem like he loved the Shire as he once did. Sort of like Celebrian after she was wounded she didn't care for Middle-Earth like she did and went to Valinor to seek healing. Frodo didn't do to much to help save the Shire, Sam, Farmer Cotton, and Merry were really the one's who rallied the Halflings. Frodo still had love for his hobbits and fellow companions but as for the Shire I can't decide. Frodo suffered a wound (many) and when returning home after all this time of wanting to he seems to have lost his love. I will have to get back to you on some clues from the book that I noticed for this. I compare Frodo's journey similar but much more difficult then Celebrian. Kransha tree trunks are straight but they are also circular, which if I understand you correctly that will only help support your theories. |
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#4 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: abaft the beam
Posts: 303
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turning and turning in the widening gyre...
I really like the gyre analogy. It seems to work better than roads and rings as separate ideas--the gyre allows for, as Boromir88 said, characters returning to their homes but still being changed.
Also, I think you were right on in bringing up Yeats, Fordim. The Second Coming is very like the Lord of the Rings in a way--it's about the end of an age. Just as at the end of the Third Age the situation for Middle Earth seemed desperate and many people lost hope, so in the poem "the falcon cannot hear the falconer." And what's more, is Sauron the "rough beast"? (Sorry, I'm quoting from memory, always a dangerous proposition and especially in the morning--I apologize if I'm getting it wrong.) I think he wanted to be. I think he would have been at the (new) center of things if the Ring had not been destroyed. |
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#5 |
Haunted Halfling
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules
Posts: 841
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Middle Earth Magnetism
Since we're all doing moving or structure metaphors for the for the path of Frodo's journey, perhaps I can throw in another odd one--a magnetic flow. This allows for an angular flow of electrons, either clockwise or counterclockwise in a circular path, creating either an upwards direction of electronic flow or a downwards direction of electronic flow. Thus, also, the tie-in with the clockwise path taken by Frodo from Hobbiton to Mordor to Minas Tirith and back (positive flow-the upright path) and also his pretty much clockwise path inside the Land of Shadow, starting at the entrance road to Minas Morgul, to Cirith Ungol, the Morgai, around to Udun, through the Plain of Gorgoroth and thence to Mount Doom (then out of the realm through the air). How's that for crackpot theories? The Road can be either upwards or downwards, metaphorically, towards the Light and positive flow or towards the Darkness and negative flow. I'm sure this metaphor doesn't hold with everyone for everything, but the spring theory made me think of it.
Cheers! Lyta
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“…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.” Last edited by Lyta_Underhill; 05-19-2004 at 09:04 AM. |
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#6 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Don't know if its relevant, but all this talk of roads & rings & gyres & spirals made me think of:
http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/maze/cretan.htm |
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#7 |
Wight
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I agree with Boromir88. In a way, I believe that Frodo didn't know what he actually wanted when he left Bag End. It may just have been the ring that was restless, but I think it was deeper than that. He felt that he needed to go and travel, but once he was actually having to leave, he missed the Shire. But did he really? I think he actually had the "Why me?" problem when he left the Shire, much like Bilbo in the Hobbit. I'm sure he did love the Shire, even by the time of the scouring he still loved his homeland, just for the nostalgia, and maybe he still loved it becuase it remind him of his loss of innocence and ignorance and who he once was.
I think the actual wound that sent him off to the Undying Lands was his loss of innocence. Frodo didn't have the blind hope like Sam, or the natural easy-goingness of Merry and Pippin. He couldn't make it through the adventure and come out the same way as the other hobbits, especially with the realization that it was a big bad world. So, yes, Frodo didn't really come full circle in the spiritual sense. He was completely changed. Aragorn, on the other hand, made a much larger circle. From Isildur all the way down to his father Arathorn, the circle hadn't been completed. Aragorn did complete it. The sword that was made whole, finally destroying Isildur's bane, asscending the throne, all these elements came together to complete what had been started long before the third age. Of course, he did have a little help. The other hobbits came full circle in both the physical and spirtual sense. Each grew-up, and took responsibilites far beyond what they would have experienced in the Shire. Gimli and Legolas did too, in a way. They became friends, despite what their ancestors had started. So, I guess they broke a circle and started a new one. Faramir didn't come full circle. He never got to come to terms with his brother or father. The journey in general was a lot like a spring. The linear journey shaped the depth of the circles, so the length of the journey determined the size of the cirlcles.
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~*Just call on me, and I'm there. I'll always be your Sam*~
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#8 |
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,547
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Boromir, I do not think Frodo lost his love for the Shire. Rather, I think he 'grew out of it'. He grew too much from his journey to still be able to enjoy the Shire, but enjoying and loving are two different things. That is part of the reason that he went on the Quest in the first place: his love for the Shire and his desire to save it.
Now back to what all this has to do with 'the Road and the Ring." Both parts are essential to understanding the characters, especially Frodo. Frodo's road was long and hard, made all the more difficult by having to bear the Ring. Both changed him; the Ring in obvious ways - it was an awful burden, pure evil - but also the Road. How would Frodo's Road have been different if it had been shorter? Longer? If it had been longer perhaps he would not have lasted. So is the Road good or evil? Certainly many of the things that happened to him were evil (carrying the Ring, being stabbed by the Morgul blade, Shelob) and the Road itself is Ring-shaped. Does this make the Road evil? However, Frodo was also changed, and grew into something better, so does that mean the Road was good for him? If the Road is evil, it is mostly because of the Ring. If it had not been for the Ring, the Road would not have been necessary, and Frodo would not have taken it, thus avoiding himself much suffering. If it hadn't been for the Road, the Ring would not have been destroyed. This puts the Road in a different light. The Road becomes a means to the destruction of the Ring, however in being that it also becomes the means to Frodo's brokenness. It gave him the need to go to the Undying Lands. The necessity of going was evil, but the Road to Valinor (and the healing I believe he received there) was good. So in Frodo's case I will say that the circle part of his Road was evil, but the straight part (to Valinor) was good (And so you come back to the lasso). The point I mean to make with this is that understanding the nature of the Ring and the Road is essential to understanding Frodo's character. But what about a character like Aragorn? Certainly his Road was good. He went from being a Ranger to the King of all Gondor and Arnor. His road was not circular in that it did not begin and end at the same location. It was more linear in this sense, unlike Frodo's road. How does the Road and the Ring then help us to understand Aragorn's character? His continued resistence to the Ring shows us his nobility and strength of character (though I have heard others say it makes him too perfect). Much of the same is shown in his Road (for example at The Paths of the Dead and his choice to look into the Palantir). We see his kingliness and such as shown by the roads he takes and his choices. One final and third character: Boromir. His Road comes almost full circle, and with the exception of the beginning and end, I would say that much of his Road was evil: his desire for the Ring and ultimately his attempt to take it. The Ring brings out some qualities in Boromir: his want for the Ring shows his pride for Gondor and Minas Tirith in that he wants it as weapon to save it. His death speech to Aragorn shows his strength of character and honor, and again his pride for Gondor. Interesting how his journey (the part we see) is all but a circle where he is greatly desiring the Ring but when he repents and saves Merry and Pippin and he drifts down Anduin on a Road that is straight. Maybe there is something in "circular journeys=bad, straight journeys=good (obviously some exceptions - the other hobbits did not go on "evil" journeys). Understanding the nature of the Ring and his relationship with it is essential to understanding Boromir's character. Edit: Cross-posting with Lhundulinwen. I didn't take your comments into account when I wrote this. |
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