The Elven change in character - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aldaron · 03-14-2001, 12:01 AM

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Re: Teleri singing by the sea

Were not the Teleri a sea people living on the west coast? So they would have had little to do with crops and harvest. They would acknowledge the seasons, no doubt, but planting, cultivating and harvesting wouldn't have been in their culture.

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Bêthberry · 06-03-2005, 07:03 AM

Do you suppose The Hobbit elves knew Tom Bombadil by any chance?

littlemanpoet · 06-08-2005, 03:34 PM

Whoa, Bêthberry! You've been digging!

This thread seems to partake of some of the same information as "what breaks the enchantment", with regard to Elves. So, is it that Sindarin Elves are less serious than Noldor and Vanyar? Or is it that Elves can frolic on the surface while keeping a very grief stricken interior below the surface? Hmmm...... I might take a guess, but I'll wait....

As to Tom Bombadil (why oh why did you have to bring that conundrum into this discussion?

), who knows? Probably. Elves seemed to be aware of him, eh?

davem · 06-08-2005, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMP

So, is it that Sindarin Elves are less serious than Noldor and Vanyar? Or is it that Elves can frolic on the surface while keeping a very grief stricken interior below the surface? Hmmm...... I might take a guess, but I'll wait....

Aren't the Elves of Rivendell Noldor?

Formendacil · 06-08-2005, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

Aren't the Elves of Rivendell Noldor?

Noldorin and Sindarin, I believe.

If I'm correct, in the Post-First Age eras, the Noldorin and Sindarin tended to be found together. There wasn't much segregation anymore.

And they had been pretty well-mixed in Mithrim, Gondolin, Nargothrond, etc, well before then anyway.

So while the individual elf might say "I am Sindar" or "I am Noldor", my understanding is that the populations as whole were mixed for the most part.

Anguirel · 06-09-2005, 12:21 AM

Actually, many would have been Laiquendi and Nandor too, I think. I can see them frolicing about.

However, part of me likes the idea that it was the anonymous Elladan and Elrohir singing...just as it was the anonymous Legolas getting drunk with Gelion the butler...

Lhunardawen · 06-09-2005, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Do you suppose The Hobbit elves knew Tom Bombadil by any chance?

They should. Who wouldn't hear all that singing?

Lalwendë · 06-09-2005, 08:06 AM

There seem to be two bits of a thread going on here.

Thread part one - about the behaviour of the Elves. I think there could be any number of explanations as to the differences between the Elves in the Hobbit and the Elves in LotR (and indeed, they are different again in The Sil).

Within the structure of the story there is the translator conceit explanation; it is quite possible that the Elves of The Hobbit are different as the one who wrote the tale was different.

The timeframe of both tales is different too. TH is set at an earlier date, before the finding of the Ring, and presumably before the Nazgul are as active as they are in LotR, going about Middle Earth and terrifying the populace - and making Elves feel far less frivolous.

We meet different Elves in each book. Elrond is the one constant who seems much the same in both books. In LotR we tend to meet Elves higher up in the social order, and hence more burdened with serious issues. And by this stage burdened also with the immensity of the news that the One is found and being carried about Middle Earth, and that Sauron is building his army.

Maybe the differences could be accounted for by the different types of Elf. Galadriel is one of the Eldar, while those in The Hobbit are Silvan Elves, of the Nandor. Of course, Legolas is one of these and he is not overly given to frivolity, but he could be much better travelled than his father, maybe he is more aware of the wider world and how its concerns have an impact on his kin. The Elves of Mirkwood are quite hostile to outsiders and would probably not be keen on travelling far and mixing with others, but Legolas seems to act as his father's messenger, either through his father not wishing to leave Mirkwood or being forced to stay and defend it.

Thread part two - Elrond knows about Bombadil, and the Ents must also know about him if they know about the Old Forest. Tom is the 'oldest' of all, so there is a high likelihood that he has met the Elves, and probably shared a few songs with them. Maybe they made him his boots?

**The Saucepan Man** · 06-09-2005, 08:17 AM

I don't see a problem here. Descriptions of a given individual or group of individuals can vary widely depending upon what they are doing at the time and who is doing the describing,as well as a range of other factors.

If three different people each sat down to write their impressions of the Saucepan Man, one when he was in the pub with his mates, another when he was at work and a third when he was playing with his children, I am sure that they would come up with some quite different and possibly contrasting descriptions.

Kitanna · 06-09-2005, 09:20 AM

When I first read The Hobbit my impression of the elves was that they were crazy pixies (or something of the like) hiding in the forest. Then with LOTR that all changed. It was Lalwendë who made the point that the elves could be more happy and carefree because there wasn't really much of a threat hanging over them. It goes the same for people, at one point in their life they can have fun and be carefree when some time later they are serious, then they can go back to being carefree later on.
So though the elves are happy-go-lucky and teasing of the dwarves in The Hobbit they, like many people, put that attitude away when something serious happens and it needs fixing.

Formendacil · 06-09-2005, 06:53 PM

It's a matter of protagonist as much as anything else, I think. Bilbo vs. Frodo. And no, I am not talking about the translator conceit.

In The Hobbit, we follow Bilbo. We follow his adventures and his tales. As such, the Elves that we see are the ones that are most likely to make contact with him. In general, those are the happier, more carefree ones. Remember, Bilbo is just a hobbit burglar, a curiosity in which silly elflings, and not great elf-lords, would be likely to place an interest in. In addition, Bilbo's own preference for Elven company seems to lean more to the "tril-lil-lil-lalliers" than to the Glorfindel bunch.

In the Lord of the Rings, by way of contrast, our protagonist carries the greatest trinket in middle-earth. What he does will decide history for millennia. Quite naturally, as we follow his journey, we are going to see quite a few more serious elf-lords than we will dancing elflings. In addition, Frodo's character is such that he gravitates more to the solemn and wise than Bilbo did. (Even in his old age, Bilbo keeps the company of Lindir and such, as well as more rogueish sorts like the Dunadan).

06-03-2005, 07:03 AM	#2
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	aka up Do you suppose The Hobbit elves knew Tom Bombadil by any chance?

06-09-2005, 12:21 AM	#6
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Actually, many would have been Laiquendi and Nandor too, I think. I can see them frolicing about. However, part of me likes the idea that it was the anonymous Elladan and Elrohir singing...just as it was the anonymous Legolas getting drunk with Gelion the butler... __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

06-09-2005, 08:06 AM	#8
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	There seem to be two bits of a thread going on here. Thread part one - about the behaviour of the Elves. I think there could be any number of explanations as to the differences between the Elves in the Hobbit and the Elves in LotR (and indeed, they are different again in The Sil). Within the structure of the story there is the translator conceit explanation; it is quite possible that the Elves of The Hobbit are different as the one who wrote the tale was different. The timeframe of both tales is different too. TH is set at an earlier date, before the finding of the Ring, and presumably before the Nazgul are as active as they are in LotR, going about Middle Earth and terrifying the populace - and making Elves feel far less frivolous. We meet different Elves in each book. Elrond is the one constant who seems much the same in both books. In LotR we tend to meet Elves higher up in the social order, and hence more burdened with serious issues. And by this stage burdened also with the immensity of the news that the One is found and being carried about Middle Earth, and that Sauron is building his army. Maybe the differences could be accounted for by the different types of Elf. Galadriel is one of the Eldar, while those in The Hobbit are Silvan Elves, of the Nandor. Of course, Legolas is one of these and he is not overly given to frivolity, but he could be much better travelled than his father, maybe he is more aware of the wider world and how its concerns have an impact on his kin. The Elves of Mirkwood are quite hostile to outsiders and would probably not be keen on travelling far and mixing with others, but Legolas seems to act as his father's messenger, either through his father not wishing to leave Mirkwood or being forced to stay and defend it. Thread part two - Elrond knows about Bombadil, and the Ents must also know about him if they know about the Old Forest. Tom is the 'oldest' of all, so there is a high likelihood that he has met the Elves, and probably shared a few songs with them. Maybe they made him his boots? __________________ Gordon's alive!

06-09-2005, 08:17 AM	#9
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I don't see a problem here. Descriptions of a given individual or group of individuals can vary widely depending upon what they are doing at the time and who is doing the describing,as well as a range of other factors. If three different people each sat down to write their impressions of the Saucepan Man, one when he was in the pub with his mates, another when he was at work and a third when he was playing with his children, I am sure that they would come up with some quite different and possibly contrasting descriptions. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

06-09-2005, 09:20 AM	#10
Kitanna Child of the West Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Watching President Fillmore ride a unicorn Posts: 2,132	When I first read The Hobbit my impression of the elves was that they were crazy pixies (or something of the like) hiding in the forest. Then with LOTR that all changed. It was Lalwendë who made the point that the elves could be more happy and carefree because there wasn't really much of a threat hanging over them. It goes the same for people, at one point in their life they can have fun and be carefree when some time later they are serious, then they can go back to being carefree later on. So though the elves are happy-go-lucky and teasing of the dwarves in The Hobbit they, like many people, put that attitude away when something serious happens and it needs fixing. __________________ "Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

03-14-2001, 12:01 AM	#1
Aldaron Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 86	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 30</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Teleri singing by the sea Were not the Teleri a sea people living on the west coast? So they would have had little to do with crops and harvest. They would acknowledge the seasons, no doubt, but planting, cultivating and harvesting wouldn't have been in their culture. </p>

06-08-2005, 03:34 PM	#3
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Whoa, Bêthberry! You've been digging! This thread seems to partake of some of the same information as "what breaks the enchantment", with regard to Elves. So, is it that Sindarin Elves are less serious than Noldor and Vanyar? Or is it that Elves can frolic on the surface while keeping a very grief stricken interior below the surface? Hmmm...... I might take a guess, but I'll wait.... As to Tom Bombadil (why oh why did you have to bring that conundrum into this discussion? ), who knows? Probably. Elves seemed to be aware of him, eh?

06-09-2005, 06:53 PM	#11
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	It's a matter of protagonist as much as anything else, I think. Bilbo vs. Frodo. And no, I am not talking about the translator conceit. In The Hobbit, we follow Bilbo. We follow his adventures and his tales. As such, the Elves that we see are the ones that are most likely to make contact with him. In general, those are the happier, more carefree ones. Remember, Bilbo is just a hobbit burglar, a curiosity in which silly elflings, and not great elf-lords, would be likely to place an interest in. In addition, Bilbo's own preference for Elven company seems to lean more to the "tril-lil-lil-lalliers" than to the Glorfindel bunch. In the Lord of the Rings, by way of contrast, our protagonist carries the greatest trinket in middle-earth. What he does will decide history for millennia. Quite naturally, as we follow his journey, we are going to see quite a few more serious elf-lords than we will dancing elflings. In addition, Frodo's character is such that he gravitates more to the solemn and wise than Bilbo did. (Even in his old age, Bilbo keeps the company of Lindir and such, as well as more rogueish sorts like the Dunadan). __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.