"Morgoth's Ring" or Sauron's Ring?

[Fingolfin II]

This is a very interesting topic, Angry Hill Troll.

You said-

Also, this answers the question: if making magic rings was a surefire way to increase one's power, why didn't Morgoth make one? Well, since it was his power to begin with that the One Ring ended up using, what would be the point? He dispersed his power consciously in an attempt to gain control over the physical world.

I think that somewhere, Tolkien said that Sauron used his Ring not to gain domination over the physical Earth itself, but over the minds of the Free Peoples of Arda. This meant that Sauron sought not to rule Arda (as he knew he could never match the Valar), but rather to rule it's lesser inhabitants.

Arda contains the being of the Valar (with a disproportionate share from Melkor).

While this is true, I believe that rather than the Three Elven Rings containing the dispersed power of Manwe, Ulmo and Aule, they are similar in temperament and purpose to these three Valar, as you picked up on very well.

My personal opinion is that Morgoth's will was not prevalent in Sauron's One Ring, but that Sauron followed his former masters lead in being evil and gathering evil creatures to him. Remember, Sauron only wanted to rule the people of Middle-Earth while Morgoth coveted the whole of Arda for his own.

Unfortunately, I only own a copy of LoTR so I can't use any quotes to back up my arguments, like you have done to good effect. This is a very interesting topic though and is subject to opinion (so either of us could be right ), so congratulations on thinking up a thought-provocative topic, which is certainly going to cause a lot of debate.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Fingolfin you remember correctly about Sauron's desire to dominate the creatures of Arda. The quote is from the same section of Morgoth's Ring as most of the ones in my first post.

Eventually [Sauron] also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavor to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain dominion over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth...Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings, for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate.

It's clear from the quote that Sauron couldn't possibly have gained control over the physical world (he wasn't strong enough by himself), but also he didn't need to, since Morgoth had 'done it for him'. It doesn't seem clear, if Sauron had the means to try to control the physical world and Morgoth hadn't already done so, what Sauron would have done. He might have just concentrated on Arda's inhabitants.

One characteristic of Tolkien's universe seems to be that power always has to come from somewhere (ultimately from Eru's creation of the Ainur and of Eä), and that once the power has been destroyed (or more accurately, dispersed) it's very hard to get back. For this reason Arda ends up being 'entropic' in the sense that in each age the power (of both good and evil) is less than in the previous one. An example is following the destruction of the Trees and the theft of the Silmarils, there doesn't seem to be the option of Yavanna just growing two more Trees (she did it once, after all) and Fëanor making a new set of Silmarils, and everybody being happy again. So partly for this reason it seems somewhat strange that Sauron would be able to increase his power by making the Ring, without the 'extra' power coming from some other source (such as Morgoth's dispersed power).

[Fingolfin II]

So partly for this reason it seems somewhat strange that Sauron would be able to increase his power by making the Ring, without the 'extra' power coming from some other source (such as Morgoth's dispersed power).

Sauron let a lot of his power pass into the making of the Ring, in order to control the very powerful Elven and other rings. The 'extra' power that he would have would be due to his dominance over the Free Peoples, because he had made the One Ring in the first place for this very purpose. However, I certainly do believe he learnt a lot under Morgoth, which led to greater knowledge, and ultimately greater power.

Sauron having the Orcs and Easterlings under his sway is very interesting and seems to support your theory about him gathering sourcing some of his own power from Morgoth's dispersed power- why else would they go to him?

I suppose you can argue against that, that they would go over to his side because of fear of him, or maybe because he bribed them (most likely it's a mixture of both). However I think that Morgoth's will is definately prevalent in this matter, as 'the bonds he laid on Sauron' (somewhere in the Silmarillion/Akallabeth) were very strong, so Sauron turned once more to evil and the 'Dark' power he most likely learnt from Morgoth. So in a way, I believe that Sauron's power is coming indirectly from what he has learnt of Morgoth, rather than from Arda itself, since Melkor is outside of it in the Void.

Angry Hill Troll

You make some very interesting views. I also think that the will of Morgoth was in the One Ring, or at least in the making of it. The will of Morgoth was in all evil things, so therefore it must be in the One Ring. Sauron was indeed a Maia however, and had power over many earthly things, so I wouldn't put it past his powers. He was the dominator of wills, and the One Ring was his guide in doing so.

Concerning the three Elven rings, I'm not sure where I stand. Perhaps they were a part of the Valar but perhaps you have just run into a timely coincidence (which either way is very fun in imagining). If you look at it from a simple standpoint though, it seems you would be correct. Manwe, lord of the air, would indeed have a part in all things of the air, would he not? So how could he NOT have a part in the elven ring wrought with the mere power of the element of the air? It would therefore make Manwe not the ruler of the skies if he could not (or did not) govern all things that were related to the sky. Aule isn't necessarily the ruler of fire however, not specifically anyway, but it still makes sense. Aule was a master of crafts if I'm not mistaken, but therefore he would indeed have mastery over fire.

Concering the quote from Elrond saying that the Valar would not let the ring come into the west doesn't justify hardly anything, for the Blessed Relm was to be free from all evil, whether it be an orc or the One Ring makes little difference. It was the fact that that the ring was evil (in my opinion) and wrought from evil.

However you claim that Sauron increased his power so to speak with the making of the ring. It seems not so to me. To me it seems as if the ring was more a weapon than a 'buffer' so to speak. Morgoth didn't need to make a ring because no one could withstand him anyway. And Sauron had great power, and was not made to perish on the earth for he was a Maia which no man could vanquish completely. He could however, dominate people's will, and thus he did with the One Ring. It doesn't seem to me it made him physically stronger.

The last conflict between your theories that I seem to catch is that Sauron's ring was more powerful than any of the Elven rings, so for this to happen the ring would have to have come from Morgoth somehow (because only Morgoth was stronger than the Valar) and it's obvious that Sauron wasn't stronger than the Valar, or even mightiest of the Maia (as proven when he was overtaken by Huan). But now the problem in this is that the Elves made the rings, not Sauron, and it seems very unlikely that somehow Morgoth could have possesed the minds or hands of Celebrimbor (the maker of the three) and it is said that Sauron never possesed the three rings, which leads me to think upon these rings as powers of the Valar, as you have said before.

So here we are back at the beginning of the delima, but it proved a fun ride nonetheless and I would love to write more about it in posts to come

[drigel]

Its seems to me a question at this point would be to ask:

After his physical form being destroyed at Numenor, how much of the power of the Ring did Sauron have to "use" to remain a potent threat to the material world?

Or, put another way, was there any sigificant change in the Ring itself pre and post destruction of Sauron's physical body? Or was the "usage" of the power changed?

IMO, the more Morgoth inserted his power into his "ring", the less powerfull his physicall entity became. But the power of his ring was still there, at least mainly there. The breaking of Beleriand would have (mabye?) decreased his power. If Morgoth was not captured and cast out into the void, the influence of his power in Arda could still be tapped, or manipulated by him.

Sauron, after the sinking of Numenor, vitally depended on the Ring's power to assert influence in ME. So, Sauron's Ring by the 2nd age appears to be the more powerfull. But only (again IMO) because of the dire need of it by Sauron. The loss of his Ring demonstrates this to me.

Question 1) What happened to the rings that were given to the Dwarves that weren't consumed by dragon fire?

Question 2) How did the One Ring work in connection with the 3 Elvish rings? If Sauron never had a part in the creation of the 3 Elvish rings, how would he have gained dominion over them when he recovered the One Ring (or is this just an incorrect assumption)?

[Ardamir the Blessed]

All the Seven and the Nine were identical in the beginning, or at least very similar. They were not called 'the Seven' and 'the Nine' in the beginning; that was only after Sauron had dealt seven of them out to Dwarves and nine to Men. But Sauron, before he dealt them out, perhaps modified the seven that were given to Dwarves to suit Dwarves specifically, and likewise the other nine to suit Men. The Three were also similar to the other 16 in the beginning but they were more powerful, and the other 16 were tainted (this perhaps implies that they were modified) later by Sauron, unlike the Three.

senser81: The Three were still partly made by Sauron's knowledge since he had teached the Mírdain, therefore they still contained his secret 'code'.