Green as a representation of evil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

HerenIstarion · 05-28-2004, 04:50 AM

Thanks, Selmo

I must confess I haven't read Othello in English, and can't remember monster of the kind mentioned in translation, But that is why BD is so good place to mince around - it is enlightening

...whom but my lady greensleeves...

What about 'scarlet women' concept?. When such a shift of colour, from green to its exact opposite, took place and why?

Hilde Bracegirdle · 05-28-2004, 09:37 AM

Quote:

In mediaeval mythology green represented nature; wild, uncontrolled, mysterious and not to be trusted. Green was worn by ladies of doubtful reputation (as in the song "Greensleeves") and was very rarely used in heraldry

Hmm, that sets me thinking about Rohan. Not to be trusted? I don’t think it would apply in that case.

As for Bilbo’s green door, let’s not forget that Gandalf saw Bilbo as having grown somewhat stagnant. Perhaps he shut that green door on the outside world and was happily moldering life away in the comfort of Bag End.

This question seems to deal with whether Tolkien used color symbolically or as an emotive trigger.

Lyta_Underhill · 05-28-2004, 10:02 AM

Ah, it seems that white was so simple and singular; now, we have all these colors to contend with! It's like the electromagnetic spectrum of the Tower of Babel, isn't it? Perhaps someone who has read Splintered Light could shed more "light" on this thought, but I suppose the wisdom of Gandalf would apply here:

Quote:

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.

Also, on the "green" theme, didn't Frodo's face turn a livid shade of green as he lay poisoned by Shelob, just before becoming fair again? As I recall, Sam saw this green shade and gave up hope for Frodo, but then, when his back was turned and his thoughts on what should he do, Frodo's face regained the fair hue when Sam wasn't looking...ah, the irony!

Cheers,
Lyta

HerenIstarion · 05-28-2004, 10:27 AM

Quote:

just before becoming fair again

Seems like thing to stress on.

Kransha · 05-28-2004, 05:04 PM

To be honest, green and its 'brethren' in the color spectrum. In the olde days (ah, I miss 'em so), there was a great deal of importance labeled in colors, primarily in the days of yore that share a literary chromosone or at the genetic level with our friendly neighborhood Professor's work. Namely, the Middle Ages and beyond. Primarily on heraldic devices, which frequent Tolkein, who goes into detail about the heraldic device of most of his pro and antagonists, colors were all but crucial. To be more poignant, there was always a good and a bad side to those colors too. To cite some examples from literature and generic culture.

For Green itself: To fence for the pro side, green is a representation of constancy, luck, fortune, happiness, merriness, and the like. Blue is a color of royalty, regalia, nobility, but that has downsides. It is more regal and less powerful. As the color blue lacks the strength and prowess to survive eternal, like resolute brown, the strong color of ancient trees. Purple is significant of mourning, almost entirely negative, as is black, which signifies death, but black also contains power, as death does.

Green's examples: The aforementioned line in Othello, said by Iago, I believe "that green-eyed monster, jealousy," the typicality of green in nature, either anarchic or beautiful. In Edmund Spenser's "The Faerie Queen" each character and challenge faced by the unamed brave knight is a representation of some evil. One of his first foes was a monstrous she-dragon, who bore 'a sickly hue of green and gules about her;" when she was slain, her serpentine children spouted from her hewn neck and were "a ghastly green seen in the muddy blood surrounding." In Middle Age nobility, green was a hindered color. Joan de Arc of France, if you've heard the tale, was able to deduce that a man parading as the King of France was not, since he was wearing green and yellow, not royal colors in France, which showed the real monarch that she was not mad, since she knew of such things. What about, the most obvious; but, here comes another tangent.

GREENLEAF! (Pardon my all-capital diversions) Tolkein references, my friends! And here, the blade is twice-edged too! Greenwood the Great was once a thriving, happy realm of Silvan Elves, but then spiders and Nazgul and orcs came to it, and it was renamed Mirkwood, but it was still green. Legolas Greenleaf himself bears the color in his name to further our purposes. He is surely not evil, and fights for another good aspect of greenery. Green is a common color in Tolkein, very common. It is often paired with another color, though, which is what makes the difference. Hobbits wore "bright clothes, of yellow and of green," a very merry pairing (no pun intended). Rohirrim were of greens and brown, more rustic and equestrienne colors. Morgul green is paired with black, in my opinion, since I always envisioned Mordor to be a black, grim place, with that sickly green as an augmentation.

davem · 05-28-2004, 10:08 AM

In folk tradition green was the colour of the 'fair folk' (fairies/elves) & wearing it without their permission was considered to be a provocative act, & anyone who did so risked their wrath. Conversely, anyone who was granted such permission - like various poets & visionaries was considered to be both specially blessed & more than a little 'suspect'. I suppose they were a kind of traditional version of the 'Elf-Friend'.(ie Thomas the Rhymer, or Thomas of Erceldoune, or True Thomas, a real person, was traditionally given a coat of green cloth by the Fairy Queen, along with the gift of prophecy - 'The tongue that cannot lie' - in return for his service. Thomas is an interesting character, & was associated with both William Wallace & Robert the Bruce. He was responsible for a number of prophecies which later came true - whether he really got that gift from the Fairy Queen is a matter of opinion, though).

http://myths.allinfoabout.com/feature32.html

Lobelia · 06-10-2004, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

In folk tradition green was the colour of the 'fair folk' (fairies/elves) & wearing it without their permission was considered to be a provocative act, & anyone who did so risked their wrath. Conversely, anyone who was granted such permission - like various poets & visionaries was considered to be both specially blessed & more than a little 'suspect'. I suppose they were a kind of traditional version of the 'Elf-Friend'.(ie Thomas the Rhymer, or Thomas of Erceldoune, or True Thomas, a real person, was traditionally given a coat of green cloth by the Fairy Queen, along with the gift of prophecy - 'The tongue that cannot lie' - in return for his service. Thomas is an interesting character, & was associated with both William Wallace & Robert the Bruce. He was responsible for a number of prophecies which later came true - whether he really got that gift from the Fairy Queen is a matter of opinion, though).

http://myths.allinfoabout.com/feature32.html

All true and good stuff! I should like to add that in a mediaeval context, green was associated with poison, which actually applies more to Lewis than Tolkien (I think someone mentioned THE SILVER CHAIR? )Any Harry Potter fans out there may remember that in CHAMBER OF SECRETS there were references to 'poison green' (and green was the colour of Slytherin House). JKR is a lady who knows a lot about history, myth, etc. and uses cultural references in her fiction. But Tolkien doesn't seem to use any colour as strictly good or evil.

Bêthberry · 06-11-2004, 06:48 AM

Another cultural context. Or two.

In those opulent Renaissance religious paintings of the Virgin and Child, blue was the colour used for Mary, in accordance with the iconography of the time. There is a painting in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City which uses green to depict Mary and the painting most often is regarded as a failed attempt to represent her. Perhaps some enterprising New York Downer knows the painting and can expand upon this tradition. For the life of me, I cannot remember the artist nor the name of the painting. I just remember that one of the Museum guides directed me to the painting and explained the tradition wherebye its depiction has been regarded as a failed attempt and walked me around all the other painting which used blue.

In medieval times, colours assumed their significance of nobility or royalty due to the cost of the dyes. Purple and blue were costly dyes and could be afforded only by the wealthy. Hence they became associated with the upper classes.

And, yes, the song "Greensleeves" describes an unfaithful women, whose sleeves are marked by grassy stains from romping around on the ground.

Yet Tolkien clothes Goldberry first in a gown of silver and green, then one in silver alone with shoes shining like silver mail. Tom is clothed in blue but with green stockings. I'm not sure how significant these colours are, but the colours of the candles in The House of Bombadil, white and yellow, are the colours of the popes.

There must be some books on Iconography which would help us here but I don't have the references at hand right now.

Joy · 08-12-2005, 01:53 AM

Wow, thanks all. These have been really interesting to read.

I will go back and comment on some specifics later.

I am suprised that this got any response at all. It was just one of those things that came to my mind while re-reading Sir Gawain.

HerenIstarion · 08-12-2005, 01:54 AM

But Green Knight is not exactly evil, is he? He's fair, at the very least

Joy · 08-12-2005, 02:13 AM

Very true, H-I, but at first his character does seem evil.

Quote:

Can this be the Chapel Green? Alack!” said the man, “here might the devil himself be seen saying mantins at black midnight!’”

This gives the impression of a aura of evilness around the Green Chapel and Green Knight.

BTW, I am glad to be back. I have never forgotten about you guys. This was my first Tolkien board. I have learned so much from you all.

I had to leave last year due to health again and this year have already been in the hospital 3 times (1 time for major back surgery).

I will try to stick around more this time.

05-28-2004, 04:50 AM	#1
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	Thanks, Selmo I must confess I haven't read Othello in English, and can't remember monster of the kind mentioned in translation, But that is why BD is so good place to mince around - it is enlightening ...whom but my lady greensleeves... What about 'scarlet women' concept?. When such a shift of colour, from green to its exact opposite, took place and why? __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

05-28-2004, 05:04 PM	#5
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	Green with envy: Heraldic Spectral Devices To be honest, green and its 'brethren' in the color spectrum. In the olde days (ah, I miss 'em so), there was a great deal of importance labeled in colors, primarily in the days of yore that share a literary chromosone or at the genetic level with our friendly neighborhood Professor's work. Namely, the Middle Ages and beyond. Primarily on heraldic devices, which frequent Tolkein, who goes into detail about the heraldic device of most of his pro and antagonists, colors were all but crucial. To be more poignant, there was always a good and a bad side to those colors too. To cite some examples from literature and generic culture. For Green itself: To fence for the pro side, green is a representation of constancy, luck, fortune, happiness, merriness, and the like. Blue is a color of royalty, regalia, nobility, but that has downsides. It is more regal and less powerful. As the color blue lacks the strength and prowess to survive eternal, like resolute brown, the strong color of ancient trees. Purple is significant of mourning, almost entirely negative, as is black, which signifies death, but black also contains power, as death does. Green's examples: The aforementioned line in Othello, said by Iago, I believe "that green-eyed monster, jealousy," the typicality of green in nature, either anarchic or beautiful. In Edmund Spenser's "The Faerie Queen" each character and challenge faced by the unamed brave knight is a representation of some evil. One of his first foes was a monstrous she-dragon, who bore 'a sickly hue of green and gules about her;" when she was slain, her serpentine children spouted from her hewn neck and were "a ghastly green seen in the muddy blood surrounding." In Middle Age nobility, green was a hindered color. Joan de Arc of France, if you've heard the tale, was able to deduce that a man parading as the King of France was not, since he was wearing green and yellow, not royal colors in France, which showed the real monarch that she was not mad, since she knew of such things. What about, the most obvious; but, here comes another tangent. GREENLEAF! (Pardon my all-capital diversions) Tolkein references, my friends! And here, the blade is twice-edged too! Greenwood the Great was once a thriving, happy realm of Silvan Elves, but then spiders and Nazgul and orcs came to it, and it was renamed Mirkwood, but it was still green. Legolas Greenleaf himself bears the color in his name to further our purposes. He is surely not evil, and fights for another good aspect of greenery. Green is a common color in Tolkein, very common. It is often paired with another color, though, which is what makes the difference. Hobbits wore "bright clothes, of yellow and of green," a very merry pairing (no pun intended). Rohirrim were of greens and brown, more rustic and equestrienne colors. Morgul green is paired with black, in my opinion, since I always envisioned Mordor to be a black, grim place, with that sickly green as an augmentation. __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

05-28-2004, 10:08 AM	#6
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	In folk tradition green was the colour of the 'fair folk' (fairies/elves) & wearing it without their permission was considered to be a provocative act, & anyone who did so risked their wrath. Conversely, anyone who was granted such permission - like various poets & visionaries was considered to be both specially blessed & more than a little 'suspect'. I suppose they were a kind of traditional version of the 'Elf-Friend'.(ie Thomas the Rhymer, or Thomas of Erceldoune, or True Thomas, a real person, was traditionally given a coat of green cloth by the Fairy Queen, along with the gift of prophecy - 'The tongue that cannot lie' - in return for his service. Thomas is an interesting character, & was associated with both William Wallace & Robert the Bruce. He was responsible for a number of prophecies which later came true - whether he really got that gift from the Fairy Queen is a matter of opinion, though). http://myths.allinfoabout.com/feature32.html __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 05-28-2004 at 10:17 AM.

06-11-2004, 06:48 AM	#8
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Another cultural context. Or two. In those opulent Renaissance religious paintings of the Virgin and Child, blue was the colour used for Mary, in accordance with the iconography of the time. There is a painting in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City which uses green to depict Mary and the painting most often is regarded as a failed attempt to represent her. Perhaps some enterprising New York Downer knows the painting and can expand upon this tradition. For the life of me, I cannot remember the artist nor the name of the painting. I just remember that one of the Museum guides directed me to the painting and explained the tradition wherebye its depiction has been regarded as a failed attempt and walked me around all the other painting which used blue. In medieval times, colours assumed their significance of nobility or royalty due to the cost of the dyes. Purple and blue were costly dyes and could be afforded only by the wealthy. Hence they became associated with the upper classes. And, yes, the song "Greensleeves" describes an unfaithful women, whose sleeves are marked by grassy stains from romping around on the ground. Yet Tolkien clothes Goldberry first in a gown of silver and green, then one in silver alone with shoes shining like silver mail. Tom is clothed in blue but with green stockings. I'm not sure how significant these colours are, but the colours of the candles in The House of Bombadil, white and yellow, are the colours of the popes. There must be some books on Iconography which would help us here but I don't have the references at hand right now. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

08-12-2005, 01:53 AM	#9
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Wow, thanks all. These have been really interesting to read. I will go back and comment on some specifics later. I am suprised that this got any response at all. It was just one of those things that came to my mind while re-reading Sir Gawain. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

08-12-2005, 01:54 AM	#10
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	But Green Knight is not exactly evil, is he? He's fair, at the very least __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!