are there she orcs??

[rutslegolas]

Well the question still seems to hang whether there are she-orcs or no??

but i do not think that orcs reproduce sexually,and where do they breed their young ones????

well can some of the scholars please help??

[Annalaliath]

umm.... I think that the orcs reproduce sexually I need to look some stuff up for you and I also am going to repeate myself..... This book was written from the victor's point of veiw.... hence the reason we don't hear much if any tell of orc women and children.... please please, rutslegolas, look at the links in my post above. I know that you don't think that orcs reproduced sexually but you should check out these old discussions. I will get back to you on this when I get my books out.

but orcs were perverted not wholey differnt creatures.... Morgoth could not create so he had to resourt to deforming an existing creation. so when it comes to the reproduction of these beings they still reproduced in the way of the children of Iluvitar.... Like I said I will find you the referance and stuff.

[Mad Baggins]

Think of horse breeders. They have mares and stallions. They take the stallions around and breed them to all the mares they can, to produce top-of-the-line foals. Some breeders even breed the mares right after they produce the foal.

This may sound a little twisted, but twisted is what Saruman became, so: Couldn't it be possible that Saruman did the same thing? Also, we are assuming that he did not have many to begin with; perhaps he had five thousand. 47 years is more than enough to produce 10,000 from 5,000. Or is it?

I really want to believe they reproduced sexually but I just can't see an Orc, female or otherwise nursing a baby, unless they're more like fish in that they produce a lot in one go but then leave them to fend for themselves.

I think that they would produce them and then leave them.

[Tar-Alcarin]

maybe orcs are like rabbits. they just dont stop multiplying likerabbits. In which case there are "she-orcs". But just because Tolkein didnt mention them doesnt mean they dont exist. But they are probably like martha stewart, every body hates them, so we dont talk about them. It is also like the "she-dwarf" thing in the sense that they are rarely mentioned.

[The Only Real Estel]

Morgoth could not create so he had to resourt to deforming an existing creation. so when it comes to the reproduction of these beings they still reproduced in the way of the children of Iluvitar....

Morgoth could not create creatures, but he could mock them. I think that that leaves open the door to others 'breeding' their orcs in a manner other than 'the Children of Iluvitars method '. When they also said that Sauron could only mock, not make, I think that means that he couldn't make orc who lived on the 'poison & filth' of Mordor like Sam had guessed. Still, could he not make orcs after the original patterns set forth by others?

Um...sorry if this post is a little confusing, but I haven't slept for close to 35 hours, & my brain is baring the brunt of that .

[Alatariel Telemnar]

Ah, but it would be kind of funny to see a pregnant orc walking around, wouldn't it? So what if orcs laid eggs? (*falls over laughing again at how funny that sounds, and how untrue it probably is*) Yes, that sounds sooo odd. But, I mean, would you honestly see a 'she-orc' walking around pregnant, with a big belly? Or would they gave birth at an early stage?

Okay, that sounded waay to odd... *shakes head at self* orcs laying eggs. that was random.

EDIT: yes, I did realize how stupid orc laying eggs sounded, and do not believe for a second that it is true.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Just because Tolkien didn't mention them doesn't mean they didn't exist. Tolkien didn't mention female eagles or female Haradrim either, as far as I know, but no one is suggesting they were dug out of the ground. Yes, eagles and Haradrim are "natural" creatures, whereas orcs are something a bit off-center, but my point is not bothering to talk about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I don't think Tolkien would have cared enough about the mechanics of orc reproduction to include it in LotR. He probably felt our imaginations were horrid enough without going into graphic detail.

"Breed" (the transitive verb) can mean several things:
"1. To cause to reproduce, especially by controlled mating and selection: the Rohirrim breed horses.
2. To develop new or improved strains in (organisms), chiefly through controlled mating and selection of offspring for desirable traits.
3. To inseminate or impregnate; mate with."

I certainly hope Saruman was doing 1 & 2 and not 3!

Getting up sufficient numbers of orcs in 50 odd years is possible depending on starting numbers, when orcs become adults/sexually mature, and how many offspring they have at one time. Let's say time of gestation is a year. So, if you start with 400 orcs (200 of which are female), and orcs become adults at the age of 10 years, and they always have quadruplets:

Year 1: 200 adult female orcs (and 200 male orcs to fertilize them)
Year 2: 200 female, 200 male and 800 baby orcs (400 female, 400 male). The 200 original females breed again.
Year 3: 200 female, 200 male and 1600 baby orcs
Year 4: 200 female, 200 male and 2400 baby orcs
Year 5: etc.
Year 10: 200 female, 200 male and 7200 immature orcs
Year 11: The first crop of 800 baby orcs are now adults and ready to breed.
600 female, 600 male and 7200 immature orcs (the original adults made new babies to make up for the ones transitioning to adulthood)
Year 12: The second crop of baby orcs become adults. 1000 female, 1000 male and 8800 immature orcs (7200 from the original adults and 1600 from the new breeders)
Year 13: The third crop of babies matures. 1400 female, 1400 male and 12,000 immature orcs (7200 from the original orcs, 3200 from the first set of babies and 1600 from the second set of babies.)
Year 14: The fourth crop of babies matures. 1800 female, 1800 male and 16,800 immature orcs (7200 + 4800 + 3200 + 1600)

You can see things are going to rapidly increase from here, especially once the offspring of the original baby orcs start to breed. Even if we stopped after Year 14 and waited another 10 for all the babies to reach fighting age, we'd have 20,400 adult orcs (10,200 male) after 23 years. Under these hypothetical conditions, Saruman would have no trouble building up an army of massive proportions in 47 years (although some orcs might be geriatric). Of course, the timeline changes if orcs mature more slowly or have fewer offspring, but increasing starting numbers can make up for that a bit. If any computer savvy people want to build an "Orc breed-o-meter" so we could play with the parameters, that would be entertaining.

-Lily